Toronto (Merged threads)

[winnyason]

38 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Get real, "not enough scouting" Earth calling winnyson, Earth calling winnyson come in please!

NB. Those cracks must be bloody big, more like Chasms, judging by the size of those Kiwi's.

Sorry not sure you can hear me your head stuck in the sand 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, winnyason said:

Sorry not sure you can hear me your head stuck in the sand 

Correct, come back to earth with something logical instead of supposition, I have posted before in detail why I believe their are not enough SL quality players to support numerous new teams, all the while those banging the drum for all these new entities say there are loads of them in the Southern Hemisphere, one simple question if these guys were available at this moment in time why would they not now take the opportunity of most probably increasing their earning power and moving away from home on a great adventure? 

I remember in the sixty's when Rochdale signed some Fijian's they were the next big thing and all teams were going to sign some, same happened when Stanley Gene came to these shores the expected torrent from PNG turned into a trickle, and do you honestly believe those under the NRL in the Queensland and NSW comps will not have been scrutinised by agents and scouts, and I would wager most of those would have a better live style offered to them if they were good enough.

Please offer a genuine reason that enough of these suitable for SL would be available.

[winnyason]

45 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Correct, come back to earth with something logical instead of supposition, I have posted before in detail why I believe their are not enough SL quality players to support numerous new teams, all the while those banging the drum for all these new entities say there are loads of them in the Southern Hemisphere, one simple question if these guys were available at this moment in time why would they not now take the opportunity of most probably increasing their earning power and moving away from home on a great adventure? 

I remember in the sixty's when Rochdale signed some Fijian's they were the next big thing and all teams were going to sign some, same happened when Stanley Gene came to these shores the expected torrent from PNG turned into a trickle, and do you honestly believe those under the NRL in the Queensland and NSW comps will not have been scrutinised by agents and scouts, and I would wager most of those would have a better live style offered to them if they were good enough.

Please offer a genuine reason that enough of these suitable for SL would be available.

It is reasonable not sure if you watched the World Cup tonga, fiji, png. You can put your head where ever it goes, the game is changing yes sides brought over fiji and png pre pro era. Not sure if that’s reasonable vunivalu, uate, Kikau, koriseau or the hunters are seeming genuine top level players emerge is totally different to 1960s to 1980s . 

The USA expansion yes will no doubt have ex nrl stars and superleague / championship players, but the pacific as World Cup showed is where on pure strength / speed is there will supply pro players to clubs are its starting to happen with widnes and castleford taking on png players. 

The storm have a full time development officer in Fiji, Fittler and Johns do clinics there brought a heap back. Png won the qld cup and are getting stronger every season, and kumul players are starting to get pro superleague deals. 

Agree to disagree 

 

 

[mickhornet]

Do the English players fly back and forth, for home games? or stay in Toronto.

[Kayakman]

33 minutes ago, mickhornet said:

Do the English players fly back and forth, for home games? or stay in Toronto.

They stay of course, don't be silly.  Do the Australian players in Super League fly back and forth, for home games?  The New Zealand players, the Fijians?  The silliness of the answer shows just how ingrained the Anti-Toronto bias has become...beyond any sense of practical reason.

Of course they don't fly back and forth for home games; come on!

 

[fairfolly]

Going to get worse for you now Kayakman now that they are duel reg. with the hated Bradford Bulls.Bradford/Toronto Bulls for Super League.

[TheReaper]

5 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Well we are into the second season and there is no sign of TWP “training anyone up”. Perez was going to train up grid iron players, but no sign of that. After entry Perez was going to China on the idea the country was full of undiscovered athletes. There are thousands of Canadian Rugby players being trained up but they are all being trained up for Rugby Union, Businesses cannot rely on poaching all their staff.

I didn't say anything about gridiron or RU players, did I? I also don't see how signing free agents/ amateurs is poaching.

We do not have “enough” players of Superleague standard to expand Superleague, TWP signed Blake Wallace who didn’t make NRL, he played in the NSW & Queensland cup second competitions, therefore it’s absurd for people to pretend that somehow Perez, Noble and Rowley do not know this player pool exists and are missing alleged SL quality players therein. Business need adequate skills up to a standard.

Define "Superleague Standard". Please, go ahead. What magical quality allows some players in and not others? I'd argue you don't know till you give a player a shot. Some won't work out, some will do well. It's up to each teams scouting department/reserve teams/development structure to decide who they think is ready to take the step.

Picking “the best” players up to the number we need does not work. How many times? Due to a lack of quality SL cut from 14 to 12 clubs but considered a cut to 10. If the players are not of a good enough quality they lose most of their games, they turn the fans and sponsors off and the TV company will not screen them. Their lack of skill means the business under performs and loses customers.

I addressed this. The problem is that the "best" are not evenly distributed. New "lower quality" players all come in with one promoted team. This is a flaw in the P+R system leading to yo-yo teams.

We have allowed Leigh London and Toulouse to be “more professional environments outside SL”, and yes, every other year they will develop a gem, but to stock the extra clubs for a transatlantic league needs 150-180 more quality players. Businesses need adequate and assured staff levels, training and recruitment

“Talent dilution is not a big deal”? See above when the SL went to 14 it diluted the talent and the lower clubs struggled badly. Businesses can't share staff, they need to strive to be the best. “Doing nothing for sure won't accomplish anything”. Don’t tell me tell Perez he’s the one who has done nothing to date and shows no sign of doing anything in the future..

"the lower clubs struggled badly" - I'd argue that was because the higher teams weren't diluted, they stayed the same, and the new teams added were weaker.

You and the rest cannot stop blaming the other SL businesses, yet it's your owner and leader you should be having a pop at. He offers untold riches in 10 years time if Superleague will just give him "5-6" Superleague places and let him access "150-180" skilled players to staff these clubs. Not asking for much is he? It's quite ridiculous.......

And it's not a business, If Australia, NZ, PNG & the Pacific is full of talent why hasn't Perez gone there? I expect the usual insults to be the answer.........

There are players available. "Good enough" is up to coaches and scouts to make the call and owners to pay the players. Expansion obviously brings in new players who would not have made the cut when the club was more exclusive. Eventually it bounces back- see NHL. People complained about drops in quality after every expansion round. The NHL is still the best hockey league in the world. Now more players play hockey in more places then ever. One of the best young NHL players, Auston Matthews, came from Arizona, where a team was relocated 20 something years ago. It takes time for things to develop.  A lot of people in RL seem to be too short-sighted to allow this to happen.

The Wolfpack have said that their goal is to get to SL in five years. They need to be in Super League for it to make sense to continue as a business. Once they are there, and therefor more viable, I imagine they'll then continue working on their development structures, scouting etc.

Complaining that TWP don't have a seconds teams, or a junior structure, or converts from other sports, after one year of existence, seems crazy. They seem to be getting the results they need even without those. It'll come, be patient.  Or, put up your own millions and show us how it's done.

[Scubby]

14 minutes ago, fairfolly said:

Going to get worse for you now Kayakman now that they are duel reg. with the hated Bradford Bulls.Bradford/Toronto Bulls for Super League.

True, across social media and RL boards many RL fans are now showing their true colours and it aint pretty. When Toronto were a pipe dream then most people watched with curious interest and the odd jibe "how much are the RFL wasting on this etc." was made. Now the Wolfpack are knocking on the door potentially far too many RL-ers are reverting to type - insular thinking and self preservation.

 

[RS]

Slapshot my all time favourite film 

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, Scubby said:

True, across social media and RL boards many RL fans are now showing their true colours and it aint pretty. When Toronto were a pipe dream then most people watched with curious interest and the odd jibe "how much are the RFL wasting on this etc." was made. Now the Wolfpack are knocking on the door potentially far too many RL-ers are reverting to type - insular thinking and self preservation.

 

Once some people figured out we are serious; dead serious, over here and we have the ability to make things happen they have become worried.  What if Toronto and the whole expansion thing is a great success...what if it all works out and they (the expansion teams) actually start to win and win big...what do we do?

Its all okay if they know their place...none ever thought they might try to lead soon.  They should know their place.

PANIC BUTTON!

P.S.:  Welcome aboard Bulls fans, honoured to work with you....as both clubs move forward to rewrite rugby history.  Even the weather is changing...the Rugby Gods have clearly taken notice.

[graveyard johnny]

the way sport has  evolved around the world  in the last 20 years with all the modern avenues now open makes us look like 5star idiots, viva Toronto - a breath of fresh air in my book

[newbe]

The problem is visa restrictions, an amateur club can play as many overseas players as they want. When comes to league 1an above they need sporting visas which means players of a certain standard ie internationals, or playing a certain amount of NRLgames. 

[fairfolly]

Graveyard, hear,hear. Rugby League needs to embrace Toronto and any other franchise from Canada or North America providing of course they are viable .Miss this chance and the end for full time professional Rugby League is nearer than most people realise.These franchises along with a better Sky deal is absolutely vital to the game in the next 5 years.

[RayCee]

I watched SL unfold in Australasia in the mid 1990's with much interest. When the judge finally gave SL the green light, at short notice teams had to be formed. There were 22 teams in 1997 playing and people were thinking (like I was) where will players come from for the Hunter Mariners and Adelaide Rams? Well those teams acquitted themselves quite nicely thank you. I learned a lesson there. The players that came out of the woodwork were of high standard. I think Brett Kimmorley was running around in club RL in Newcastle, got into the Mariners and the rest is history. 

So all this talk about where will the extra players come from washes over my head. I learned something from the SL war in Australia and that is talent doesn't always rise to the top. Some players just need that break, that opportunity. Especially late bloomers who are usually the ones that miss out in a pro career and either walk away from the game quite young or play out their career in a lower division.  More clubs will minimise that happening.

[Bleep1673]

4 hours ago, RS said:

Slapshot my all time favourite film 

Goon, my second favourite Ice Hockey film

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Bleep1673 said:

Goon, my second favourite Ice Hockey film

Goon is good, but its no slapshot...got a third one, going for the hat trick?

[Allora]

40 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Goon is good, but its no slapshot...got a third one, going for the hat trick?

Youngblood......

[dkw]

Both goon and slapshot are belting films,  slapshot 2 is garbage though. 

[The Parksider]

7 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

(1) The number of players of sufficient quality is not a finite resource. We don't have enough because we don't produce enough, because we invest next to nothing in kids at the youngest ages, because we invest very little in to youth development and academy RL, and we invest relatively little in to sports science, because we dont give enough chances to young british players instead, because we dont have an efficient system for distributing players, because our salary cap is too low.

(2) And ill say again, its a bit rich to blame the new entities for not bringing players through when we have decades (3) old heartland clubs not running academies.

(1) Of course the number of quality players is a “finite” resource. You yourself say that the “limitation” is investment levels so it is a “finite resource” unless investment levels are limitless and they certainly are not.

SL went £68M in debt last contract. Money is "finite". The number of kids wanting to play RL instead of RU & Soccer is "finite", the number of JARL clubs to accommodate them is "finite" , and League playing schools are also  “finite”. Terrible post, awful argument.

(2) Nobody is “blaming the new entities” for coming into the Rugby League and not bringing players through now. Again a terrible argument. You say “we invest next to nothing in kids” which is total rubbish as we invest £Millions in the foundations and the academies.  But Toronto Wolfpack and Perez can be blamed for investing nothing at all on kids even after gaining entry to the RFL.

(3) As for you having a go at the old heartland clubs, another completely untrue argument. The old heartland clubs supported the School game (Leeds & Hunslet Schools RL). From there the  school teams fed the Leeds or Hunslet Juniors teams (Under 16), that then fed the Leeds or Hunslet Intermediates (Under 18's) and the best kids went into the senior clubs reserves, from there the best went to the first team. That was five stages of development, people like Harry Jepson oversaw this, players like Steve Pitchford and Les Dyl were amongst the many many home grown stars. 

ANYWAY that nonsense aside at least the Canadian lads have some sort of excuse for their naivety, but you should know better. Yes the world cup showed there are a number of places where good RL players come from, but Harry is spot on that they’ve come from Fiji, Papua New Guinea and New Zealand for years. Little Hunslet turned up the great Kiwi Gary Kemble way back in the late 70’s. NRL now take the first pick anyway, but given there was a teamful of real USA players at the World Cup why didn't Toronto go and sign them all up as a start?

The fact is they are not interested at all in development they just want to take over super league places and buy up the Super league players on a promise of $Billions in 10 years time. If they get that will they share it - will they stuff. Can you Canadian lads blame us for being a little aggrieved?

[Guest]

I find it amusing that people still waffle on regarding academies.The community clubs feed the academies without them you have no academies!

Without breaking the thread and keeping on topic, investment should be placed in the kids not a glorified pathway (academy) which will only end in misery for 99% of them,with no clear pathway for them to continue in the sport.

If Toronoto's values are too promote the sport as expansion,then investment in youth should be the headlines.

[ojx]

1 minute ago, SL17 said:

If Toronto's values are too promote the sport as expansion,then invest in youth should be headlines.

Is their plan to use MMU (link with Toronto universities) and Bradford Bulls (& their reserves) as development vehicles?  I don't know.

Sending young Canadian players over to be involved in the English system might be the only way right now. There is literally nobody at the required level for a reserve or youth team to play in Toronto. Perhaps if NY, Boston & Hamilton are all accepted, then some kind of North American youth/reserve league could go with it. I would like for the TWP to share more information about their development plans. However, their style seems to be waiting until everything is 100% in place before making announcements.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ojx said:

Is their plan to use MMU (link with Toronto universities) and Bradford Bulls (& their reserves) as development vehicles?  I don't know.

Sending young Canadian players over to be involved in the English system might be the only way right now. There is literally nobody at the required level for a reserve or youth team to play in Toronto. Perhaps if NY, Boston & Hamilton are all accepted, then some kind of North American youth/reserve league could go with it. I would like for the TWP to share more information about their development plans. However, their style seems to be waiting until everything is 100% in place before making announcements.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it will happen overnight, but with reported 7/8k attendances the club should be looking at the youth aspect and getting them involved now. As for dual reg,well that works on a weekly basis,so not sure what the point in doing that is. Possibly will work given TWP away fixtures but can't see it being used on their home fixtures.

[Kayakman]

14 hours ago, Allora said:

Youngblood......

Never liked Youngblood...The Mighty Ducks was pretty good though....nice family film.

[John WP Fan]

9 hours ago, SL17 said:

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it will happen overnight, but with reported 7/8k attendances the club should be looking at the youth aspect and getting them involved now. As for dual reg,well that works on a weekly basis,so not sure what the point in doing that is. Possibly will work given TWP away fixtures but can't see it being used on their home fixtures.

I don't see why we can't put a player on an Air Transat flight with the visiting club if we need him for a home match. I wouldn't expect to do it every game, but if there's an injury and we need help, that would work.

[Bleep1673]

18 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Goon is good, but its no slapshot...got a third one, going for the hat trick?

Miracle. The story of the USA victory in the 1980 winter Olympics against the USSR