Lack of respect for referees.

[deluded pom?]

3 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Can’t remember which game it was over the weekend. There was an incident were a scrum was awarded and because of descent it was changed to a penalty. Refs don’t use this enough any more and that’s why this attitude of players is creeping in. 

Bradford v Leeds IIRC. Leeds were the team who were penalised.

[Futtocks]

32 minutes ago, EastLondonMike said:

When watching the game live my initial thought was "look at those idiots". It's embarrassing to see such behaviour.

Seem to recall a game i attended a year or two back that James Childs was officiating and the speed of which the fans turned on him was ridiculous. i think within 10 mins and maybe the second penalty of the game he was copping it.

The mentality of lot of fans is to just blame the ref, and every decision against them is seen as an injustice and stored away in the memory banks for the next game. Regardless of whether it was a right or wrong decision.

I'd be ok with ref's being a lot harder on teams and any players who speak out of turn.

Quite a few fans on here turn on the referee before the match has even started.

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I think this quote is worth keeping for the next time you are preaching others for having a go at the refs. 

There should be no however at all here.

Quite correct. Of course,  it is wholly wrong for fans of any team to spit venom or anything else at referees.

But nevertheless, however. it does not absolve the match officials from reasoned criticism, something very rare on here, until Saturday, that is.

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

Quite a few fans on here turn on the referee before the match has even started.

I seem to remember Gledhill, in particular, starting threads based entirely on his imagined outcome of a match yet to take place based entirely on who was going to be reffing Bradford.

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

Quite a few fans on here turn on the referee before the match has even started.

Funnily enough, I think the RFL refereeing announcements are a bit counter-productive and don't help this situation. I genuinely, have no interest in the slightest who the ref will be for a game, yet it is given prominent coverage on the RFL's social media (I suspect to give some coverage of the sponsor Ronseal), but they are the one press release that I never ever click, I find them an irrelevance.

I think the RFL would be better served going back to what they did a few years back and used the social media to engage with fans via the refs and the discussions each week, I thought they worked well, were pretty respectful (in the main) and allowed a bit of a relationship to be built up. 

[One F in Wakefield]

Its beyond pathetic the abuse the refs get at the games.  My own clubs fans are some of the worst for it as well.

No ref goes out onto the field to cheat, if he has a bad game or makes a few 50/50 calls against your team, he isnt bent, he's just calling it as he sees it.

If we gave these lads time to develop in confidence and ability, instead of hammering every mistake and calling them cheats, we wouldnt be having inexperienced refs running SL matches.  Self fulfilling prophecy.

[Lowdesert]

8 minutes ago, One F in Wakefield said:

Its beyond pathetic the abuse the refs get at the games.  My own clubs fans are some of the worst for it as well.

No ref goes out onto the field to cheat, if he has a bad game or makes a few 50/50 calls against your team, he isnt bent, he's just calling it as he sees it.

If we gave these lads time to develop in confidence and ability, instead of hammering every mistake and calling them cheats, we wouldnt be having inexperienced refs running SL matches.  Self fulfilling prophecy.

Yes, and that develops the issue which hinders recruitment.

Imo it’s an essential role which is absolutely wide open for new blood in the game.  Do the job right, be firm but fair and be consistent.  A decent living if you get to the top.

i honestly think ex players see the role as something which they could never take on, but all it would take would be a top line player to make s fist of it and then there would be more.

We would still have the fans issue though which should be dealt with by the Clubs.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

The abuse has got to ridiculous levels now, from both players and fans. Some of the people that sit round me are awful for it. A few games back, the words they were shouting at the linesman, I'm surprised he didn't come into the stand and beat someone to death with his flag. Good on the linesman though, he just stood and laughed it off, literally, made me smile a bit that. A case of, the idiots think they are being big by abusing him and he was just laughing at what idiots they are. 

The disrespect from players is especially uncalled for in my opinion. The referee knows the rules and enforces them. He has been trained to enforce those rules and is the best authority on that field when it comes to them. It's that simple. Shouting at him is not gonna make him change his mind so it is doing no one any good. Quite simple solution. You raise your voice to the referee, you show any sign of aggression then you get 10 minutes. Hopefully jake will start to realise this cos he has been binned for it a couple of times now. After a few weeks of referees really clamping down on it, it will stop. 

Also if you wanna get really pedantic about british law, the actual definition of statutory assault is feeling threatened. Battery is actually what people are meaning most of the time when they talk about assault. Battery is any physical contact whatsoever, even just poking someone say. Anyway, don't need to go into anymore detail on the offences against the person act (although I could talk about british law all day, fascinating subject), point is fans could be chucked out of the ground and banned if their behaviour was deemed to be threatening. If I was a ref and 3,000 fans were saying they were going to deck me I would feel a bit threatened. 

[deluded pom?]

12 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

The abuse has got to ridiculous levels now, from both players and fans. Some of the people that sit round me are awful for it. A few games back, the words they were shouting at the linesman, I'm surprised he didn't come into the stand and beat someone to death with his flag. Good on the linesman though, he just stood and laughed it off, literally, made me smile a bit that. A case of, the idiots think they are being big by abusing him and he was just laughing at what idiots they are. 

The disrespect from players is especially uncalled for in my opinion. The referee knows the rules and enforces them. He has been trained to enforce those rules and is the best authority on that field when it comes to them. It's that simple. Shouting at him is not gonna make him change his mind so it is doing no one any good. Quite simple solution. You raise your voice to the referee, you show any sign of aggression then you get 10 minutes. Hopefully jake will start to realise this cos he has been binned for it a couple of times now. After a few weeks of referees really clamping down on it, it will stop. 

Also if you wanna get really pedantic about british law, the actual definition of statutory assault is feeling threatened. Battery is actually what people are meaning most of the time when they talk about assault. Battery is any physical contact whatsoever, even just poking someone say. Anyway, don't need to go into anymore detail on the offences against the person act (although I could talk about british law all day, fascinating subject), point is fans could be chucked out of the ground and banned if their behaviour was deemed to be threatening. If I was a ref and 3,000 fans were saying they were going to deck me I would feel a bit threatened. 

What would be the punishment for beating someone to death with a flag?

[Kayakman]

5 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

What would be the punishment for beating someone to death with a flag?

Newly appointed head coach of the Leeds Rhinos. 

[Sparse Attendance]

There were some right whoppers going mad in the crowd at the Ref because he decided to ask the Video Ref to take a look at it. 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

14 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

What would be the punishment for beating someone to death with a flag?

Well it would be a spur of the moment decision through anger I would imagine so it would be manslaughter. The linesman would argue 'loss of control' here, a case of his anger getting the better of him and also taking into account the provocation which caused it he could get quite a lenient sentence. Unlike with murder there is no mandatory sentence for manslaughter so it would be at the judges discretion, typically around 5-10 years, parole reviewed after around half the sentence is completed with the rest served on license. His defence would be a good one here but it would have the be weighed up with the severity of the killing. Beating someone to death with a flag would take some doing so it is a pretty brutal act. I think the provocation is a bigger factor than the actual crime and he would probably only get a few years. He could also argue 'reduced mental capacity' which again would be a good defence being a rugby league linesman. 

[ELBOWSEYE]

There has always been spectators shouting at refs its just the tv cameras miss few things these days ,a more worrying trend is the players constantly moaning at officials ( my club has its fair share) and the referee not stamping it out. 

[Dave T]

26 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Newly appointed head coach of the Leeds Rhinos. 

harsh

[fairfolly]

Goose, 

            Refereeing is a tremendously difficult job and yes they should know the rules.I asked a straightforward genuine question this weekend on a post if the double movement rule had been changed this season.Apparently it has not,yet three tries were sent up to the video ref this weekend for confirmation of the tries,in each case the video ref was heard to say,"has the ball carrying arm hit the floor" he said "yes it has" and then awarded the try in each case.Now,correct me if I am wrong but my understanding of the rule is if the ball carrying arm hits the ground the tackle is complete UNLESS the momentum carries him over.In none of the cases this weekend that was the case,one could be classed as 50/50 the other two were quite clearly double movements to all and sundry.Now I am not condoning any kind of abuse to Referees in any form but sometimes they do not help themselves.Remember the V/R is not an instant decision,they have plenty of time to assess the situation and come up with the correct decision.

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

There has always been spectators shouting at refs its just the tv cameras miss few things these days ,a more worrying trend is the players constantly moaning at officials ( my club has its fair share) and the referee not stamping it out. 

Yep, the reason I linked the two in the OP is because I think the way the players behave with refs will have an influence on the fan's behaviour too. 

It is also much harder to control fans, and you do get the mob mentality element, plus the fact that whilst unpleasant much of it is legal really. But as a game we seem to be sending out the message that we are accepting of this constant questioning and intimidation of the referee from players, so why would fans act differently?

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

harsh

He shall reap what he has sown...I know its a harsh and cruel and most unusual punishment....but Hey...they have got to find some sucker for the job.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, fairfolly said:

Goose, 

            Refereeing is a tremendously difficult job and yes they should know the rules.I asked a straightforward genuine question this weekend on a post if the double movement rule had been changed this season.Apparently it has not,yet three tries were sent up to the video ref this weekend for confirmation of the tries,in each case the video ref was heard to say,"has the ball carrying arm hit the floor" he said "yes it has" and then awarded the try in each case.Now,correct me if I am wrong but my understanding of the rule is if the ball carrying arm hits the ground the tackle is complete UNLESS the momentum carries him over.In none of the cases this weekend that was the case,one could be classed as 50/50 the other two were quite clearly double movements to all and sundry.Now I am not condoning any kind of abuse to Referees in any form but sometimes they do not help themselves.Remember the V/R is not an instant decision,they have plenty of time to assess the situation and come up with the correct decision.

This is where the Ask the Ref initiative on Twitter a few years back worked well. I think it is reasonable for the RFL to have to explain the approach on the double movements - even if it is that it was simply human error.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

19 minutes ago, fairfolly said:

Goose, 

            Refereeing is a tremendously difficult job and yes they should know the rules.I asked a straightforward genuine question this weekend on a post if the double movement rule had been changed this season.Apparently it has not,yet three tries were sent up to the video ref this weekend for confirmation of the tries,in each case the video ref was heard to say,"has the ball carrying arm hit the floor" he said "yes it has" and then awarded the try in each case.Now,correct me if I am wrong but my understanding of the rule is if the ball carrying arm hits the ground the tackle is complete UNLESS the momentum carries him over.In none of the cases this weekend that was the case,one could be classed as 50/50 the other two were quite clearly double movements to all and sundry.Now I am not condoning any kind of abuse to Referees in any form but sometimes they do not help themselves.Remember the V/R is not an instant decision,they have plenty of time to assess the situation and come up with the correct decision.

Not quite sure why you've directed that post at me. I didn't say anything about decisions being right or wrong, I just said refs know the rules and shouting at them isn't gonna help the situation that's all.

[RP London]

5 hours ago, Just Browny said:

I agree with the OP and agree that players from my club are as guilty as any.

The incident Rod Studd has highlighted was horrible. And in that instance Child was actually expressing his opinion that it was a try: God knows what would have happened if he had said 'no try'.

Thats actually quite a scary question... they were quite close and it does worry me what they could have done, we've seen it at some football matches with what has been thrown on the pitches.. 

[Just Browny]

23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is where the Ask the Ref initiative on Twitter a few years back worked well. I think it is reasonable for the RFL to have to explain the approach on the double movements - even if it is that it was simply human error.

Incidentally, not sure if you saw but Rod Studd asked Ian Smith (former ref) on Twitter about the Sarginson 'no try', and Smith confirmed that the interpretation changed to the one used yesterday some years ago in response to a view within the game that there needed to be a black and white way of ruling on those sorts of situation. And that the conclusion reached was that if it hits your arm and goes forward, even in effecting a tackle, it is a knock on.

[Leeds Wire]

https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/shaun-wane-says-robert-hicks-was-right-to-rule-out-wigan-warriors-try-1-9765248

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Incidentally, not sure if you saw but Rod Studd asked Ian Smith (former ref) on Twitter about the Sarginson 'no try', and Smith confirmed that the interpretation changed to the one used yesterday some years ago in response to a view within the game that there needed to be a black and white way of ruling on those sorts of situation. And that the conclusion reached was that if it hits your arm and goes forward, even in effecting a tackle, it is a knock on.

Yes, Studd is on a campaign about Video Ref's (across all sports) and this is sort of his point, that you need to be careful what you wish for. 

I must admit, I would have given the try, but when I saw it bobble and it hit the tackler's hand, I was pretty happy with that and had a feeling that if they looked again slowly it would be disallowed. 

I do think we need a common sense approach - in that one, ask the question - "Was the tackler playing at the ball or did it just hit him?" I think it is clear he was just tackling. 

In the 2nd one, as "Did momentum take the player over the line, or did he make a 2nd play?". I think it was clear there was a 2nd play.

But, common sense means different things to different people.

[Lowdesert]

5 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Incidentally, not sure if you saw but Rod Studd asked Ian Smith (former ref) on Twitter about the Sarginson 'no try', and Smith confirmed that the interpretation changed to the one used yesterday some years ago in response to a view within the game that there needed to be a black and white way of ruling on those sorts of situation. And that the conclusion reached was that if it hits your arm and goes forward, even in effecting a tackle, it is a knock on.

Personally I would disagree with that in it is virtually impossible to prove in some situations.  The ball and the player would need sensors on them, which wouldn’t last long given the nature of the game.

The only way that could work would be banning tackles above ball carrying height.  This is an extreme example but unworkable.  

 

[Whippet13]

Jack Owens has been charged with abusing an official:

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/widnes-winger-faces-lengthy-ban-for-abusive-language-towards-official-20546/