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Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)


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51 minutes ago, Griff said:

And yet life carries on here as normally as it did eighteen months ago.

Astonishing how resiliant we are on the big island.

“Virus riddled” is what Aussies are thinking, and for a largely unvaccinated Aussie populous that’s dangerous. Our situation is much better than theirs due to the vaccine roll out, but without vaccinations it would be a different story.

The Aussies are now where we were March/April/May of last year.

I get this insular thinking (the RLWC must happen this year, the Aussies are jeopardising it). I was exactly like this in regards to the Premier League shutting down with Liverpool 25 points clear and only a 10 games left (maximum 30 available). My thought process was dominated by Liverpool missing out on a league title. But many people were dying. It was hard to park any thoughts of the league, and I don’t think I did. Had I been impacted directly (family member for example) that would have very quickly made me see sense.

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16 hours ago, Damien said:

Talk about clutching at straws. Even the NRL or any representative never mentioned part time state leagues. This was all about 16 NRL clubs and their pre season trial games. Stop trying to change the facts to suit your opinion.

Aren't the Hunters owned by the PNG RL anyway? The players are the employees of the PNG RL and have nothing to do with the NRL. There is no player welfare nonsense that the NRL can use.

There was a statement from the PNG RL authorities (which I can't find a link to) outlining their revised plans after Jon Dutton announced dedicated charter flights in the run-up to the Aussies pulling out. Their PNG-based players were going to have to quarantine to be allowed into Australia, in order to catch the flights, and obviously again when they returned to Australia and potentially they would need to be away from home for some months, and this might cause some disruption to the end of the domestic season. Seemed pretty clear that the PNGRL was putting the world cup ahead of everything else.

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1 hour ago, DC77 said:

“Virus riddled” is what Aussies are thinking, and for a largely unvaccinated Aussie populous that’s dangerous. Our situation is much better than theirs due to the vaccine roll out, but without vaccinations it would be a different story.

The Aussies are now where we were March/April/May of last year.

I get this insular thinking (the RLWC must happen this year, the Aussies are jeopardising it). I was exactly like this in regards to the Premier League shutting down with Liverpool 25 points clear and only a 10 games left (maximum 30 available). My thought process was dominated by Liverpool missing out on a league title. But many people were dying. It was hard to park any thoughts of the league, and I don’t think I did. Had I been impacted directly (family member for example) that would have very quickly made me see sense.

If the reason for pulling out was Covid related, I’m sure most people would be disappointed but could at least sympathise. But it wasn’t. 

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4 hours ago, tiffers said:

I have to say I disagree there. I think our lack of action on the field with regards to internationals has caused this huge gulf in quality, resources and indirectly weakened our game.

I firmly believe we need to be playing more internationals at all levels. If nothing else, it allows those countries to get a regular calendar and work at smaller levels with sponsors/corporates etc. This strategy builds longer term to generate consistency, stablility and provides a basis for growth to build revenues from. I dont think we need to be focused on filling huge grounds to start with (for most NH countries). Yes the comeptitions/games need to be profitable. But a minor profit for Greece or Italy that we would no doubt turn our noses up at in England, would go a long way to growing the game in that country. It could pay for new equipment for the amateur game or help finance the national teams to tour somewhere else and further monetise the international game. The key thing is that the expectations we set for England & French international revenues will be different to Serbia.

We have seen the results of inaction, unwillingness and snobbery from the top tier nations. We are at a tipping point for RL's international scene. We have to get more internationals rolling.

No the lack of Internationals has not caused the huge gulf in quality, the gulf in quality is due to the game down under having a much higher profile and a lot more money than the game in the UK and consequently a much bigger player pool.  In truth a gulf in quality has existed for at least 40 years, but the RU converts the game was able to attract hid that to an extent and helped GB stay in touch with Australia.

It's not surprising that the gap was narrowest when Offiah, Davies, Devereux and the rest were in the British game.  Since RU went pro though, there aren't any such converts to boost the player pool because RL can't afford them now.

Likewise France can't compete with England without more French players becoming full-time pros and playing at a higher level week in and week out.  Those full-time pros would help draw better crowds too, as the public wouldn't be anticipating such a big mismatch as they would now.

The reason for the snobbery as you put it is the lack of sponsor and broadcaster interest in RL Internationals other than World Cups and matches against Australia or New Zealand.  The RFL received 431,607 £ less broadcast income in 2019 than in 2018, and that difference was due to the home series against New Zealand in 2018, thus we can conclude that the BBC paid less than half a million pounds for the whole series.  That's a drop in the bucket next to even the reduced Sky contract let alone the previous Sky deal.

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1 hour ago, DC77 said:

“Virus riddled” is what Aussies are thinking, and for a largely unvaccinated Aussie populous that’s dangerous. Our situation is much better than theirs due to the vaccine roll out, but without vaccinations it would be a different story.

The Aussies are now where we were March/April/May of last year.

I get this insular thinking (the RLWC must happen this year, the Aussies are jeopardising it). I was exactly like this in regards to the Premier League shutting down with Liverpool 25 points clear and only a 10 games left (maximum 30 available). My thought process was dominated by Liverpool missing out on a league title. But many people were dying. It was hard to park any thoughts of the league, and I don’t think I did. Had I been impacted directly (family member for example) that would have very quickly made me see sense.

 

The emotive point is so often made in an attempt to trump a logical view.

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"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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25 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

No the lack of Internationals has not caused the huge gulf in quality, the gulf in quality is due to the game down under having a much higher profile and a lot more money than the game in the UK and consequently a much bigger player pool.  In truth a gulf in quality has existed for at least 40 years, but the RU converts the game was able to attract hid that to an extent and helped GB stay in touch with Australia.

It's not surprising that the gap was narrowest when Offiah, Davies, Devereux and the rest were in the British game.  Since RU went pro though, there aren't any such converts to boost the player pool because RL can't afford them now.

Likewise France can't compete with England without more French players becoming full-time pros and playing at a higher level week in and week out.  Those full-time pros would help draw better crowds too, as the public wouldn't be anticipating such a big mismatch as they would now.

The reason for the snobbery as you put it is the lack of sponsor and broadcaster interest in RL Internationals other than World Cups and matches against Australia or New Zealand.  The RFL received 431,607 £ less broadcast income in 2019 than in 2018, and that difference was due to the home series against New Zealand in 2018, thus we can conclude that the BBC paid less than half a million pounds for the whole series.  That's a drop in the bucket next to even the reduced Sky contract let alone the previous Sky deal.

I dont disagree with the argument regarding the gulf in quality when comparing England to Aus. Both of these teams are derived from pro leagues with stark differences in terms of broadcast incomes and thus, their ability to fund development in their own country.

But the gulf in quality I was referring to is between the top tier NH nation to "everyone else" in the NH. The only way that you fund development and create that perpetually growing scenario is to raise revenues of the IRL and individual federations. Particularly when referring to those countries that have no professional/semi-pro leagues and broadcast deals. Playing regular internationals does therefore drive their revenues and provide much needed cash into their coffers to fund the game. Having no regular international agreed calendar and international strategy hugely impacts development.

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4 minutes ago, tiffers said:

I dont disagree with the argument regarding the gulf in quality when comparing England to Aus. Both of these teams are derived from pro leagues with stark differences in terms of broadcast incomes and thus, their ability to fund development in their own country.

But the gulf in quality I was referring to is between the top tier NH nation to "everyone else" in the NH. The only way that you fund development and create that perpetually growing scenario is to raise revenues of the IRL and individual federations. Particularly when referring to those countries that have no professional/semi-pro leagues and broadcast deals. Playing regular internationals does therefore drive their revenues and provide much needed cash into their coffers to fund the game. Having no regular international agreed calendar and international strategy hugely impacts development.

The situation in the NH is essentially the same as the situation between England and Australia and New Zealand.

France won't magically improve by playing England regularly, any more than New Zealand improved by playing Australia regularly (which they've done 135 times now since 1908).  France will only improve in the same way as New Zealand did: by having more full time pros playing the game at a high level week in and week out.  The same is certainly true of Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, the US, etc. etc. etc.

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17 hours ago, John Drake said:

Quick note to all concerned in this thread.

If you think someone is a troll, put them on ignore. Never respond to them. At all. Ever. Certainly don't divert the thread into a discussion all about them, rather than the topic at hand.

There is nothing guaranteed more to annoy a genuine troll and drive them away than steadfastly ignoring them.

By using the ignore feature on here, you don't even have to see their posts at all, so ignoring them involves no effort of willpower.

However, it his worth pointing out that someone expressing a strong opinion contrary to your own does not, in itself, constitute trolling.

If the comment is on topic, and does not contain personal abuse or foul language, however annoying it might be to your sensibilities to read, it isn't really trolling and we cannot ban someone for it.

If you see any posts which are deliberately off topic, or do involve personal abuse, or attempts at foul language, then please report them. And as is always our advice, do not respond to them.

Now, back on topic.

Thanks.

Am being slow here, but as this thread has become completely trollified, how do I ignore them again (can’t seem to work that out from my phone)? 

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

The situation in the NH is essentially the same as the situation between England and Australia and New Zealand.

France won't magically improve by playing England regularly, any more than New Zealand improved by playing Australia regularly (which they've done 135 times now since 1908).  France will only improve in the same way as New Zealand did: by having more full time pros playing the game at a high level week in and week out.  The same is certainly true of Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, the US, etc. etc. etc.

Respectfully, I just dont agree. Playing more games across the board in an organised and profitable way, will drive revenues and will provide much needed funding to those other federations to build from. This is a clear route to making revenue. It's as simple as that. Make revenue and recycle it to grow the game. It's not about getting everyone to the same level instantly on the pitch, its about organic growth.

In France you could have a world cup being hosted (could being the operative word in that sentence). What an opportunity that would be to drive up revenues for the federation and those French club sides. That in turn drives the amount they have to spend, upwards. It forces conversations with new partners, government and sponsors. It drives the improvement in assets, the quality of players they can pay for etc. Just as importantly, it would be a huge shot in the arm for awareness of the game in France.

It may be many years before we see an that snowball. But for me, we have sat around for too long bemoaning that there isnt an international scene and the game is dominated by 3 mega-powers. There is RL outside of the big few teams and it has the potential to grow the sport wider and further if we can harness it in the right way. This is the long game.

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Credit Brad Fittler , who contradicted Joey John’s idea to play Tests ( even combining all the pacific islands in one team to play Australia ) at the end of the year .  He said it would be a slap in the face and disrespectful  to everyone who’d worked so hard to get the World Cup on to be told no we’re not coming , and you can’t argue player welfare then play tests . 

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1 minute ago, tiffers said:

Respectfully, I just dont agree. Playing more games across the board in an organised and profitable way, will drive revenues and will provide much needed funding to those other federations to build from. This is a clear route to making revenue. It's as simple as that. Make revenue and recycle it to grow the game. It's not about getting everyone to the same level instantly on the pitch, its about organic growth.

In France you could have a world cup being hosted (could being the operative word in that sentence). What an opportunity that would be to drive up revenues for the federation and those French club sides. That in turn drives the amount they have to spend, upwards. It forces conversations with new partners, government and sponsors. It drives the improvement in assets, the quality of players they can pay for etc. Just as importantly, it would be a huge shot in the arm for awareness of the game in France.

It may be many years before we see an that snowball. But for me, we have sat around for too long bemoaning that there isnt an international scene and the game is dominated by 3 mega-powers. There is RL outside of the big few teams and it has the potential to grow the sport wider and further if we can harness it in the right way. This is the long game.

"Playing more games across the board in an organized and profitable way" can't happen without those additional full-time pros in order for those matches to be big events which can draw the sort of crowds and TV audiences needed to deliver those profits.  We've already seen that under the current setup crowds are poor when England plays France or Wales unless that happens in a World Cup.

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8 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Am being slow here, but as this thread has become completely trollified, how do I ignore them again (can’t seem to work that out from my phone)? 

Click on the username in the left hand corner of the post, select Ignore User. That's it.

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.

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14 hours ago, DavidM said:

Credit Brad Fittler , who contradicted Joey John’s idea to play Tests ( even combining all the pacific islands in one team to play Australia ) at the end of the year .  He said it would be a slap in the face and disrespectful  to everyone who’d worked so hard to get the World Cup on to be told no we’re not coming , and you can’t argue player welfare then play tests . 

https://9now.app.link/CjOJEzqPsfb

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15 hours ago, Big Picture said:

"Playing more games across the board in an organized and profitable way" can't happen without those additional full-time pros in order for those matches to be big events which can draw the sort of crowds and TV audiences needed to deliver those profits.  We've already seen that under the current setup crowds are poor when England plays France or Wales unless that happens in a World Cup.

That's just not true. Lock Lane can have a profitable game against Leigh Miner Rangers. It's all about perspectives on what is an acceptable return for the respective nations/teams involved.

Yes, to muster larger profits you need the broadcasters and the big names. But Serbia vs Italy may well be happy to play for much smaller returns than England. Further down the line they may well be demanding that a very good return on a broadcast deal/in front of large crowds is what they are willing to agree to. But today and in the current environment that is wholly unrealistic and we need to start somewhere with the NH. Small profits are better than no profits.

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2 hours ago, tiffers said:

That's just not true. Lock Lane can have a profitable game against Leigh Miner Rangers. It's all about perspectives on what is an acceptable return for the respective nations/teams involved.

Yes, to muster larger profits you need the broadcasters and the big names. But Serbia vs Italy may well be happy to play for much smaller returns than England. Further down the line they may well be demanding that a very good return on a broadcast deal/in front of large crowds is what they are willing to agree to. But today and in the current environment that is wholly unrealistic and we need to start somewhere with the NH. Small profits are better than no profits.

Serbia vs Italy would only attract a "crowd" of a couple of hundred or so at this point, what profit would be made from that?

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30 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Serbia vs Italy would only attract a "crowd" of a couple of hundred or so at this point, what profit would be made from that?

They don't need to make a profit, the venture just needs to be affordable.

This has the benefit of establishing the competition, the beginning of a tradition, and in terms of the incentive it creates for young club players to stay in the game, and commit to continually raising their standards, the value is immense.

I've never met anyone so blind to the concept of kaizen (continual improvement by small increments) as you.

Comparing the game in Canada, or the USA to the NRL is a folly, it's a 'game' the newcomers just can't win.

However, comparing the game in Canada, this year, to the game in Canada, last year is a 'game' that they (and all the new nations) can win.

Thankfully, Newcastle have adopted this 'strategy' for the last 40 years or so. If only every other area in this country and across the world, had done the same. 

Don't you have any ideas, any ideas at all, as to how these fledgling nations might grow?

You are not just habitually negative, but you exude negativity (by nature), and its so distasteful. 

Not only are your (incessantly repeated) arguments potentially depressing to our younger members, they are boring me to tears.  

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I think we can get too hung up on profit. Surely as long as developing nations can have a vibrant international calendar that creates pathways and encourages growth then I'd be quite happy for such matches to just break even. 

The cream and profit to fund the international game should come from the World Cup and hopefully additional international events run by the IRL.

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20 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

They don't need to make a profit, the venture just needs to be affordable.

This has the benefit of establishing the competition, the beginning of a tradition, and in terms of the incentive it creates for young club players to stay in the game, and commit to continually raising their standards, the value is immense.

I've never met anyone so blind to the concept of kaizen (continual improvement by small increments) as you.

Comparing the game in Canada, or the USA to the NRL is a folly, it's a 'game' the newcomers just can't win.

However, comparing the game in Canada, this year, to the game in Canada, last year is a 'game' that they (and all the new nations) can win.

Thankfully, Newcastle have adopted this 'strategy' for the last 40 years or so. If only every other area in this country and across the world, had done the same. 

Don't you have any ideas, any ideas at all, as to how these fledgling nations might grow?

You are not just habitually negative, but you exude negativity (by nature), and its so distasteful. 

Not only are your (incessantly repeated) arguments potentially depressing to our younger members, they are boring me to tears.  

I am not unfamiliar with the concept, I just understand that it can't and won't deliver what the game needs.

This whole episode of the Aussies leaning on the WC organizers and getting their way shows that the game in the northern hemisphere needs a bigger, better, higher profile and financially profitable International scene.  I'm sorry that for all your enthusiasm for the big oaks grow from little acorns idea, that won't cut it because it would take decades to bear the required fruit, by which time the game won't exist outside of the Antipodes the way things are going.

The isn't being negative, it's facing reality.

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56 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I am not unfamiliar with the concept, I just understand that it can't and won't deliver what the game needs.

This whole episode of the Aussies leaning on the WC organizers and getting their way shows that the game in the northern hemisphere needs a bigger, better, higher profile and financially profitable International scene.  I'm sorry that for all your enthusiasm for the big oaks grow from little acorns idea, that won't cut it because it would take decades to bear the required fruit, by which time the game won't exist outside of the Antipodes the way things are going.

The isn't being negative, it's facing reality.

Well in that case, the game is doomed anyway you look at it, isn't it?

Can you see, your giant sugar daddy solution, on the horizon? No? I thought not. 

These people like Pulga, are making it happen, down on the ground, (all over the place) entirely on their own initiative and their own dollar. Their following the method that created the Northern Union (RFL) and the NRL in the first place. 

You and I I'm glad to say, are polar opposites.  

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On 12/08/2021 at 01:37, DavidM said:

Credit Brad Fittler , who contradicted Joey John’s idea to play Tests ( even combining all the pacific islands in one team to play Australia ) at the end of the year .  He said it would be a slap in the face and disrespectful  to everyone who’d worked so hard to get the World Cup on to be told no we’re not coming , and you can’t argue player welfare then play tests . 

Well done to Freddie

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theres no point chewing it over - blaming him them and her - its not happening - deal with it - moooooove on 

did the bloke who invented the phrase "one hit wonder" invent anything else?

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