Saints lose Walmsley and Paasi for the rest of the season.

[Harry Stottle]

42 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

and when you look at when the impact was made do you feel its wrong

 

Have you been on Adobe Photoshop and super imposed Asiata's arm Sweaty, that is most definatley not what happened ask @hullste , @Jughead and @StandOffHalf for confirmation

[phiggins]

Which tackle injured LMS? He went off at half time, with an apparent quad injury and Asiata was taken off after 25 minutes.

On the Paasi one, I still think the main facts are, he hits the attackers thigh with his shoulder, and wraps his arm around, but the knee is then twisted because there's also a tackle in the opposite direction. That was the view of the MRP, and also a former referee or two on social media.

 

For balance, Silverwood does question the Walmsley tackle, though questions will also be asked about how bad the injury might've been had he not been sent back on.

No idea which tackle injured Knowles.

If the RFL are reviewing tackling techniques and the regulations then great. But I hope they also consider the knock on effects of them.

As for Wellens, I think some of his comments are irresponsible, almost suggesting that defenders should dive at attackers knees, despite that fact that is not what actually happened on Saturday. In fact, the end result of tackling the legs is most likely to be a quick play the ball. So I can't see coaches encouraging it. And his whatabouttery on the Knowles / medical reports shows a complete ignorance to the process and the rulings.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, phiggins said:

If the RFL are reviewing tackling techniques and the regulations then great.

Well, we know they are because every couple of weeks someone like Gledhill puts out a moaning tweet about how many penalties there were in the academy game he just saw.

So (and I know it's a different kind of tackling in that case) looking at technique and impact is obviously on their radar.

[phiggins]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Well, we know they are because every couple of weeks someone like Gledhill puts out a moaning tweet about how many penalties there were in the academy game he just saw.

So (and I know it's a different kind of tackling in that case) looking at technique and impact is obviously on their radar.

Yes, sorry, should've said if they're reviewing low tackle technique. I know they're trialling the above the armpit rule. 

But any changes they make, they need to be careful of the knock on effect of what they do.

[StandOffHalf]

31 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have you been on Adobe Photoshop and super imposed Asiata's arm Sweaty, that is most definatley not what happened ask @hullste , @Jughead and @StandOffHalf for confirmation

Pause it at the point of contact, not after the head is half-way through Paasi's leg!

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, StandOffHalf said:

Pause it at the point of contact, not after the head is half-way through Paasi's leg!

If at the point where Asiata left the ground to effect the tackle Passi's legs were still moving as he was running and in doing so his knee is at different heights, that is how people traverse across the ground by lifting one leg in front of the orher unless of course he was on a skateboard.

Can you catagorically say where Asiata's aim was, but it is completely irrelevant his first contact was above Passi's knee, for confirmation see the judiciary report.

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

and when you look at when the impact was made do you feel its wrong

 

If anything for me I think that looks worse just because from the reverse angle we know that the Leigh player is in a sort of downward spearing motion and in the picture above it does look like his head is above the Saints players knee, we know from the other angle his shoulder is pretty much in the worse place that it could hit. I do think its a bit of over analyzing though and the only thought going through that players head will have been how he can stop the Saints player from scoring. I do think it is something that maybe needs looking at and a bit of a warning sending out to the game on a whole regards tackle technique.

[Southampton Leyther]

I think a key thing here is to step back, stop going off one frame pictures (picked to suit either argument) or super slowed down footage.

Watch it at full speed, as it happened.

12,000+ people watched it live and nobody was in any sort of uproar. The commentary team praised it as committed defence, and even though the Paasi one was right in front of the Saints fans there didn't seem to be any outrage during the game. 

Watch the clips, the whole clips in full speed as they happened live and it gives a clear picture to me. Desperate defending, putting your body on the line to try and win a massive game and lead your team to Wembley.

MRP agrees and the witch hunt from Saints and Wellens is completely unwarranted. 

[John Drake]

Various posts deleted.

Please remember, on here, debate the point, don't have a go at the person making it.

[Faithful1865]

As others have pointed out, nobody in the ground (nor the MRP) seemed to be upset with the tackles in question. Its sad that players have been injured as a result but for Wellens making the statements he has reflects more on him than on the incidents. He inherited (courtesy of Holbrook and Woolf a team of world champions) and they've seemingly gone backwards under his stewardship. Is there possibly a case of deflection from his performances by making such statements?  This is my thoughts and I'm here to be shot at if anyone has other thoughts.

[GeordieSaint]

Of note in this debate is there is a fairly broad mix of supporters of other clubs not particularly keen on Asiata’s tackling technique stating as such on this forum, as well as a broad mix of folk who disagree. A similar debate is playing out elsewhere on social media, and it certainly is in my friendship group, which includes ex-pros in both codes. So the idea this is some sort of Saints witch-hunt is a silly; we’ve just been on the receiving end of the injuries hence the outspoken comments from Wellens. 

I still absolutely think there is no malice in Asiata’s actions, particularly with the Paasi tackle which is out of desperation rather than anything else. But his technique is awful from a recklessness and duty of care perspective so I don’t think we will have heard the last of this, particularly if it happens again. 

My final point remains well done to Leigh. The best team won on the day and they are deservedly in the final. I look forward to watching the final. 

[Snowys Backside]

59 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Of note in this debate is there is a fairly broad mix of supporters of other clubs not particularly keen on Asiata’s tackling technique stating as such on this forum, as well as a broad mix of folk who disagree. A similar debate is playing out elsewhere on social media, and it certainly is in my friendship group, which includes ex-pros in both codes. So the idea this is some sort of Saints witch-hunt is a silly; we’ve just been on the receiving end of the injuries hence the outspoken comments from Wellens. 

I still absolutely think there is no malice in Asiata’s actions, particularly with the Paasi tackle which is out of desperation rather than anything else. But his technique is awful from a recklessness and duty of care perspective so I don’t think we will have heard the last of this, particularly if it happens again. 

My final point remains well done to Leigh. The best team won on the day and they are deservedly in the final. I look forward to watching the final. 

I think that is very well put. Fair play to you. I too think Asiatas technique is awkward because it is too low in my opinion but he doesnt tackle players to break their legs !

It a pity you didn't counsel your coach beforehand. His tirade of abuse of once specific player and accusing him of performing deliberate acts to injure players has otherwise spoiled a fantastic game and overall weekend.

I don't think Lam would have addressed it this way, but i can guarantee that the words 'unfortunate' would have been used more than once !!

 

I remember Vila Matautia being a cannonball FOR ST HELENS, with ball in hand. He used to dive into players just to get a quick play the ball. Now that was dangerous. I never liked it when he did it for Leigh as he was big enough to bust tackles but come on, any tackle around the legs can result in injury just like a simple slip on a banana can result in death !!

[hullste]

39 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

I don't think Lam would have addressed it this way, but i can guarantee that the words 'unfortunate' would have been used more than once !!

Lam wouldn't even be able to congratulate Saints for winning never mind anything else. Just like he couldn't when he was the Wigan coach.

[Tommygilf]

I think there has been some poor disciplinary decisions in the past. Broadly however I think the disciplinary and post game review system has got things correct this year - punishments have felt appropriate and team sheets haven't been dominated with "missing through suspensions".

However, there have been high profile cases where deliberate or reckless injury causing actions have been punished minimally, if not at all. It is about balance, like all things.

[meast]

9 hours ago, Jughead said:

I’m not sure how it’s relevant. I don’t see how you can’t discuss something without “well…well…well…what about that time that Saints player got a ban?” as if that’s some sort of defence. If that was the case, we can’t ever ban anyone for making a tackle because they might be tackling someone that also at some point was once banned for making a bad tackle and it makes the whole thing a bit redundant.

As for Cooper’s, it was a hip drop and he got banned for it. His disciplinary record and Cooper’s diagnosis meant he got five games. 

Again, let’s disband the disciplinary, eh? What do you mean, no? But hey, at least it’s not that quote that you’ve stopped peddling. 

Yeah, but what about that time Vila Matautia got banned in 1997, eh?!! 

Classic "whataboutery" not sure what it's got to do with Paasi getting injured and potentially ending his career but hey-ho.

[phiggins]

3 minutes ago, meast said:

Classic "whataboutery" not sure what it's got to do with Paasi getting injured and potentially ending his career but hey-ho.

Although Wellens peddled similar whatabouttery when comparing how Knowles' ban was increased due to the nature of injury caused by what was deemed to be foul play, with not using an injury as a factor once a tackle had been deemed legal.

For all the noise around Morgan Knowles, headbutts to the knee etc... the only questions are, was the tackle legal? If yes, should it be? If it shouldn't be, what aspect should be outlawed?

Everything beyond that becomes hysterical, and in some cases, inflammatory.

[bobbruce]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

How was you taught to tackle Jon?

It was drive in with the shoulder and wrap the arms around the legs, it is physically impossible to do it any other way.

It was a long time ago but I’m pretty sure you were taught to tackle around the waist and slide down. 

[bobbruce]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

How was you taught to tackle Jon?

It was drive in with the shoulder and wrap the arms around the legs, it is physically impossible to do it any other way.

Double post. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by bobbruce

[GeordieSaint]

Rohan Smith having his say:

 

[sweaty craiq]

Was thinking about how these Saints players were deliberately trying to injure the Leigh player, who is still and controlled by 2 saints lads when his leg is savagely and deliberately targetted  - then I thought why lower yourself. Then  I thought would Sky news allow me the platform to make this a hanging offence for all 3, naaah.

 

[ELBOWSEYE]

5 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

It was a long time ago but I’m pretty sure you were taught to tackle arou nd the waist and slide down. 

We may have been taught that but we certainly didn't use it that much in the forwards, there were more head shots then but usually most tackles were one on one rather than the group tackles we see today.

[bobbruce]

2 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

We may have been taught that but we certainly didn't use it that much in the forwards, there were more head shots then but usually most tackles were one on one rather than the group tackles we see today.

Of course but as a kid no one was taught to hit the knee or even thigh you were taught as I say to tackle round the waist and slide down. It’s even mentioned by Rohan Smith in his video that he’s never seen anyone teach this tackle technique. I don’t think there’s any intent from him and I don’t think he should be getting some massive ban but I do think the least the RFL could do is advise him on a poor tackle technique that’s dangerous for both him and opponents.

[ELBOWSEYE]

12 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Of course but as a kid no one was taught to hit the knee or even thigh you were taught as I say to tackle round the waist and slide down. It’s even mentioned by Rohan Smith in his video that he’s never seen anyone teach this tackle technique. I don’t think there’s any intent from him and I don’t think he should be getting some massive ban but I do think the least the RFL could do is advise him on a poor tackle technique that’s dangerous for both him and opponents.

No argument from me, but as I have already stated that wellens is wrong to say it's open season at all levels of the game, I certainly would not have tried that tackle anytime in my career it is too difficult and the risk factor too great for yourself never mind the person you are tackling.

[bobbruce]

1 minute ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

No argument from me, but as I have already stated that wellens is wrong to say it's open season at all levels of the game, I certainly would not have tried that tackle anytime in my career it is too difficult and the risk factor too great for yourself never mind the person you are tackling.

Players are always looking for legal ways to hurt each other let’s not kid ourselves. I don’t mean in a nasty finish your season kind of way more a you won’t run near me again sort of way. 

[Chrispmartha]

As it happens I do sort of agree with Wellens but Im sure there’s loads of instances of saints players doing the same, also when his club were getting players off in technicalities of the MRP system he wasn’t as vocal about okayer safety.