Four Nations

[sam4731]

Does anyone else miss it? Will we ever see it return?

[welshmagpie]

Miss it? Yes.

Ever return? Not for the foreseeable, it’s inconvenient for Australia. 

What if? Two tiers of 4 (the quarter finalists of each World Cup) would contest a 4 Nations & Federation Shield respectively in odd years of a cycle .

[OriginalMrC]

See my comments on the Tonga thread. The 4 nations was great but at the time was seen as a commercial disaster. In hindsight the attendances were pretty strong. 21000 in Coventry and over 40k for a non England final at Anfield.

[crashmon]

This ship has sailed   Which is a shame.   But has to have the Aussies in it if it was ever re-established.

 

[Hopie]

I'd be happy to see it run again, even if it didn't include Australia the world's number 2, 3, 4 and 5 would be a tournament that any fool should be able to sell to the general public. Hopefully the RFL/IRL would find somebody to do it for them. 

[Expatknight]

On past performances the RFL couldn’t sell ice cream in the Sahara, they are not fit for purpose as an organisation.

[moorside roughyed]

I'd buy tickets in a heartbeat but I can't see it returning sadly.

[JM2010]

The SH teams don’t need it. They’ve got their own 4N down there 

[londonrlfan]

Maybe not so much the Four Nations, but the sport desperately needs a second major international tournament. 

[17 stone giant]

2 hours ago, sam4731 said:

Does anyone else miss it?

Yes, that and The Ashes.

I'm sure the 4N will be played again one day, but when that will be and whether it will be a regular thing, I have no idea.

[Barley Mow]

16 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

Yes, that and The Ashes.

I'm sure the 4N will be played again one day, but when that will be and whether it will be a regular thing, I have no idea.

As @JM2010 alludes to, we could well see a 4 nations competition in the next few years.

Unfortunately it wouldn't involve GB or England, but would be played in the SH by Australia, NZ, Samoa and Tonga.

[17 stone giant]

3 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

As @JM2010 alludes to, we could well see a 4 nations competition in the next few years.

Unfortunately it wouldn't involve GB or England, but would be played in the SH by Australia, NZ, Samoa and Tonga.

Yes, sure. Sorry, I was thinking the question meant a return to the Aus, NZ, Eng/GB and one other 4N from a few years back.

They'll probably do what you describe next year, if Samoa don't come here instead. That's what the Pacific thing was initially intended to to be, right?

We just stole/borrowed Tonga this year, so they only had 3 teams.

[Barley Mow]

13 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

Yes, sure. Sorry, I was thinking the question meant a return to the Aus, NZ, Eng/GB and one other 4N from a few years back.

They'll probably do what you describe next year, if Samoa don't come here instead. That's what the Pacific thing was initially intended to to be, right?

We just stole/borrowed Tonga this year, so they only had 3 teams.

I'm sure the opening post was referring to bringing back the old style 4 nations (which most of us would love).

I was just being pessimistic.

[Damien]

36 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

Yes, sure. Sorry, I was thinking the question meant a return to the Aus, NZ, Eng/GB and one other 4N from a few years back.

They'll probably do what you describe next year, if Samoa don't come here instead. That's what the Pacific thing was initially intended to to be, right?

We just stole/borrowed Tonga this year, so they only had 3 teams.

We didn't steel or borrow Tonga. We asked them to tour and they accepted.

[eal]

I don't think we realized at the time what a golden age of international RL it was to have an annual four nations. Now we are stuck with mickey-mouse three team tournaments in the southern hemisphere and a Tongan team playing in front of 10,000 in Huddersfield.

[UTK]

The code has well and truly outgrown the 4N concept. 

Now that mid-season International windows have unfortunately been thrown in the bin it would be a disastrous decision to bring the 4N back. There's a reason why hemisphere alternating tournaments (outside of a WC) are not utilised in any other major sport - they are fairly worthless to broadcasters due to time zone differences, as we've even seen with the Tonga tour not being shown by Sky NZ.

If we ran on the old 4N schedule with no mid-season internationals you would have AUS/NZ not playing matches in their home region for 2/4 years in a WC cycle where England was the host (and vice versa for England outside of a France/Combined Nations test), even when we did have mid-season internationals in this structure AUS/NZ  would play maybe 1-2 games in the region on those "away" years. All the while wondering why we haven't been able to build year-on-year consistent attendance and broadcasting results for Internationals!

Unfortunately for England the lack of local competition leaves them in limbo outside of World Cups, the Tonga tour has provided a golden opportunity to establish viability for touring nations outside of AUS/NZ and to therefore guarantee regular internationals against SH opponents at home. Expansion of the Pacific Championships needs to occur but even in their current state the top tier of this tournament has been as well attended as previous 4N iterations, and both tiers have attracted significant support from local governments interested in hosting events. 

[Farmduck]

6 hours ago, JM2010 said:

The SH teams don’t need it. They’ve got their own 4N down there 

And don't they also have a greater responsibility to play Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, PNG, etc, given the potential for growth in those regions, as opposed to generating a one-off payday for France, Scotland or Wales.

It's unfortunate that the game has evolved in two opposite time zones. This will undercut the value of any TV deals which then devalues other sponsorships.

[gingerjon]

I genuinely can't now remember. What is the outline set-up for 2024 and 2025 based on the IRL statement from a bit back?

[Barley Mow]

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I genuinely can't now remember. What is the outline set-up for 2024 and 2025 based on the IRL statement from a bit back?

2024 - Pacific Championships again. Nothing specific for England but an expectation that Samoa will tour here - Shaun Wane has actually said twice now that they are coming (although I don't think he was supposed to have gone that far).

2025 - England tour Australia.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, UTK said:

The code has well and truly outgrown the 4N concept. 

Now that mid-season International windows have unfortunately been thrown in the bin it would be a disastrous decision to bring the 4N back. There's a reason why hemisphere alternating tournaments (outside of a WC) are not utilised in any other major sport - they are fairly worthless to broadcasters due to time zone differences, as we've even seen with the Tonga tour not being shown by Sky NZ.

If we ran on the old 4N schedule with no mid-season internationals you would have AUS/NZ not playing matches in their home region for 2/4 years in a WC cycle where England was the host (and vice versa for England outside of a France/Combined Nations test), even when we did have mid-season internationals in this structure AUS/NZ  would play maybe 1-2 games in the region on those "away" years. All the while wondering why we haven't been able to build year-on-year consistent attendance and broadcasting results for Internationals!

Unfortunately for England the lack of local competition leaves them in limbo outside of World Cups, the Tonga tour has provided a golden opportunity to establish viability for touring nations outside of AUS/NZ and to therefore guarantee regular internationals against SH opponents at home. Expansion of the Pacific Championships needs to occur but even in their current state the top tier of this tournament has been as well attended as previous 4N iterations, and both tiers have attracted significant support from local governments interested in hosting events. 

I can see the pros and cons of a 4 nations. I wouldn't have one every year but I do feel it probably has a place in the World Cup cycle.

I don't really get the outgrown argument though. The Tri Nations/4 Nations was easily the most profitable tournament v outlay over the last couple of decades and delivered the most bang for its buck. They can also easily be achieved by teams playing matches in their own hemispheres first.

[Dunbar]

We need to complete the job on Tonga, then beat Samoa 3-0 and show that we are up with Australia and New Zealand as the best teams in the world.  That way, we will be seen as a draw and get an invite to the table.

Australia don't see England as a challenge just as we don't see France as a challenge and it is up to us to do something about it.

[Mathius Hellwege]

11 hours ago, Expatknight said:

On past performances the RFL couldn’t sell ice cream in the Sahara, they are not fit for purpose as an organisation.

they would stage all the games in one half of the M62 corridor

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

38 minutes ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

they would stage all the games in one half of the M62 corridor

or be really ambitious and play them all at Leigh ! 

 

[UTK]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

I can see the pros and cons of a 4 nations. I wouldn't have one every year but I do feel it probably has a place in the World Cup cycle.

I don't really get the outgrown argument though. The Tri Nations/4 Nations was easily the most profitable tournament v outlay over the last couple of decades and delivered the most bang for its buck. They can also easily be achieved by teams playing matches in their own hemispheres first.

Outgrown in the sense that we now have Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, and PNG who can beat/compete with AUS/NZ/ENG while France/Wales/Scotland have gone backwards comparatively during the same timeframe. 

Given the crowds and money put into the Pacific Championships by the respective QLD/Victorian/Australian/NZ governments into hosting these matches so far I would be quite shocked if previous 4N were more profitable on a per-game basis. Perhaps over an entire tournament having more games between the top nations may push  previous 4N above the Pacific Championships and Bowl combined.

Average crowds leading into the finals this weekend: 

• Championship (AUS/NZ/SAM): 20,665
• Bowl (PNG/FIJI/CI): 9,500
• Championship + Bowl: 15,000

Average crowds for previous 4N/Tri Nations/Oceanic Cup (trusting wikipedia here so I don't have to go through every match): 

• 2019 OC (AUS/NZ): 22,328 **** Average for Pool A (AUS/NZ/TONGA) but double-header between pools included in average. Total avg between Pool A + B = 14,045
• 2016 4N (England): 18,951
• 2014 4N (AUS/NZ): 20,675
• 2011 4N (England/Wales): 18,295
• 2010 4N (AUS/NZ): 19,644
• 2009 4N (England/France): 16,584
• 2006 3N (AUS/NZ): 25,825
• 2005 3N: (AUS/ENG/NZ): 22,163
• 2004 3N (NZ/ENG): 26,041
• 1999 3N (AUS/NZ): 17,574

So the Championship 3N average is on track to eclipse every iteration of the 4N but will fall short of the 2006 and 2004 3N equivalents. Overall average including the games in PNG Bowl tournament will probably end up a total average of 15.5 - 16k, but that number is supplemented by the $3.5 Million paid by the government to host games in PNG this year.

[Damien]

43 minutes ago, UTK said:

Outgrown in the sense that we now have Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, and PNG who can beat/compete with AUS/NZ/ENG while France/Wales/Scotland have gone backwards comparatively during the same timeframe. 

Given the crowds and money put into the Pacific Championships by the respective QLD/Victorian/Australian/NZ governments into hosting these matches so far I would be quite shocked if previous 4N were more profitable on a per-game basis. Perhaps over an entire tournament having more games between the top nations may push  previous 4N above the Pacific Championships and Bowl combined.

Average crowds leading into the finals this weekend: 

• Championship (AUS/NZ/SAM): 20,665
• Bowl (PNG/FIJI/CI): 9,500
• Championship + Bowl: 15,000

Average crowds for previous 4N/Tri Nations/Oceanic Cup (trusting wikipedia here so I don't have to go through every match): 

• 2019 OC (AUS/NZ): 22,328 **** Average for Pool A (AUS/NZ/TONGA) but double-header between pools included in average. Total avg between Pool A + B = 14,045
• 2016 4N (England): 18,951
• 2014 4N (AUS/NZ): 20,675
• 2011 4N (England/Wales): 18,295
• 2010 4N (AUS/NZ): 19,644
• 2009 4N (England/France): 16,584
• 2006 3N (AUS/NZ): 25,825
• 2005 3N: (AUS/ENG/NZ): 22,163
• 2004 3N (NZ/ENG): 26,041
• 1999 3N (AUS/NZ): 17,574

So the Championship 3N average is on track to eclipse every iteration of the 4N but will fall short of the 2006 and 2004 3N equivalents. Overall average including the games in PNG Bowl tournament will probably end up a total average of 15.5 - 16k, but that number is supplemented by the $3.5 Million paid by the government to host games in PNG this year.

We are talking about a 4 Nations. There is nothing stopping these bowl matches and more happening beneath that as now. I am sure PNG could host a bowl type 4 nations as now with the same government funding. The Oceanic Cup was much more analogous to these Pacific Championships than any 4 Nations so not sure why you've put it there.

Some of those 4 nations you cite based on average attendances also don't tell the full story. They were very profitable with big blue chip sponsors like Gillette. If an average attendance was all that mattered we wouldn't have had Australia v NZ at Warrington, the Stoop or Loftus Road and they could have just been in Australia or NZ.

The NRL are never slow to say these Pacific international matches ordinarily lose money. They have cut the World Cup from 16 teams to 10 due to cost. I don't believe that matches now being underwritten by government money is going to make them more profitable than what a 4 Nations could be. I also don't believe that this funding couldn't be sought anyway.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Damien