What would your plan for Wales, Ireland and Scotland be?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Typically this topic becomes a Bring Back GB focus. That’s really not going to address the issue. 

My suggestion of reverting to GB is only if the issue can't be addressed. Unfortunately, I can't see how the issue can be successfully addressed without significant money and resources, and - more importantly - the will of the RFL to actually try and do something about it. Alas they have shown zero desire to address this issue in the last 20 years. Can you see anything changing?

[WelshpoolMarauder]

34 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

And they're doing a great job. But with the best will in the world, their national side probably won't beat an NCL team.

Does that matter? The best the Netherlands have to offer are playing international rugby league against the best of other countries. They might never beat England or Australia, but their players are getting the chance to represent their nation at their sport. That means a lot.

[Pulga]

They all suffer from having Tier 3 organisations but tier 1.5 heritage players.

Tier 3 countries just get on with things with zero help from the IRL and hope to break even.

Wales, Ireland and Scotland seem to think it's beneath them to play these sorts of games as I'd suspect some players would want to get paid.

They should be playing each other every year with a domestic quota of at least 12 of the game day 17.

France should also be playing Wales 3 times a year. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

8 hours ago, WelshpoolMarauder said:

Does that matter? The best the Netherlands have to offer are playing international rugby league against the best of other countries. They might never beat England or Australia, but their players are getting the chance to represent their nation at their sport. That means a lot.

There's nothing wrong with that at all - the work that's going on in all of these countries is great. But I'm not sure that they're doing much in terms of development that Ireland and Scotland aren't.

[nadera78]

1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

There's nothing wrong with that at all - the work that's going on in all of these countries is great. But I'm not sure that they're doing much in terms of development that Ireland and Scotland aren't.

Well, they clearly are because Scotland doesn't have a domestic competition - 3 scratch teams playing each other when they can find enough players to make a side does not count.

[yanto]

13 hours ago, headtackle said:

Rugby League should have the equivalent of Football's nations league

Mini groups of 3 or 4 teams in tiers so that the cream rises to the top and each team has realistic and competitive fixtures.

 

 

See my post. 

It is in place...has been for years.

Its only European A that is not getting its act together.

How can the Dutch (for example) play five internationals this autumn yet the European A group teams can't organise one?

People are also pointing fingers at the RFL.

Nowt to do with them whats happening in Scotland or Ireland.These countries now come under the RL European Federation who have less money in the pot than the RFL.

 

 

[londonrlfan]

8 hours ago, Pulga said:

They all suffer from having Tier 3 organisations but tier 1.5 heritage players.

Tier 3 countries just get on with things with zero help from the IRL and hope to break even.

Wales, Ireland and Scotland seem to think it's beneath them to play these sorts of games as I'd suspect some players would want to get paid.

They should be playing each other every year with a domestic quota of at least 12 of the game day 17.

France should also be playing Wales 3 times a year. 

I agree. What's the point of having a Federation if the RFL need to do everything for them? They've both had over 20 years of advantages being in the WC, BBC etc and nothing has come of it. Greece play in one WC and now AEK Athens have a league side, but they're barred from the next two. There's just no interest in RL in Scotland and Ireland. There might be at a niche level, but time to stop throwing resources at them just because they're a union nation. That makes it harder to make inroads anyway. Happy for them to exist on the level of say Malta etc, but they shouldn't be competing in WCs. At least until they start putting in real development work first. 

[Archie Gordon]

I too am less than lukewarm about Scotland and Ireland. My bigger concern is South Wales and, if I may extend that concern, Cumbria, London/SE and Occitanie. I'm deliberately choosing regions here because that is where my plan would focus - a regional competition in the middle of season where I think we have the space for it. Internationals would remain for October-November.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Archie Gordon

[Guest]

Forget about Ireland. League cannot compete against union and the GAA. The RFL could have learnt a lot of from the GAA into how to run a sport played mainly within a small area. They even have London competing. There were exhibition games back in the 30s and that was when efforts should have been made to promote the sport. It's just flogging a dead horse at this point. Irish people don't migrate to the North anymore so the heritage line will dry up soon. 

[OriginalMrC]

I think that sadly we may have seen an opportunity lost in Wales. The potential was/is there to have a proper Welsh team with a players having a clear pathway. It needs more investment and soon or RL will be lost in Wales. 

Scotland and Ireland need to have domestic teams playing games on the ground. There are some domestic teams but the season is about 4/5 games long. I know both countries want to play at world cups but I really don't see what benefit there is to wheeling out a load of heritage players every 4 years without doing all the other work you'd expect for a fully fledged RL nation. I am aware both countries have u16 and u19 teams but even these teams rely on heritage players. 

Personally I would focus on GB Lions again and try to build the brand. Get big tests going again and try to make it a profitable brand. Some of the profits could be released back to Wales, Scotland and Ireland to aid development. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 hour ago, nadera78 said:

Well, they clearly are because Scotland doesn't have a domestic competition - 3 scratch teams playing each other when they can find enough players to make a side does not count.

The 2022 Netherlands domestic comp was 5 teams playing 4 games each. Your bar doesn't seem to be very high for what counts. 

[fighting irish]

12 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

My suggestion of reverting to GB is only if the issue can't be addressed. Unfortunately, I can't see how the issue can be successfully addressed without significant money and resources, and - more importantly - the will of the RFL to actually try and do something about it. Alas they have shown zero desire to address this issue in the last 20 years. Can you see anything changing?

No, not if everyone involved is like you.

Your criticism of the people, in these fledgling nations actually making things happen (however small their early achievements) is arrogant, condescending and churlish.

They are making things happen despite the neglect of the established nations so I stand here cheering them on. 

I wish them well and hope many more will emerge as awareness of the existence of the game spreads.

I'm not even sure ''advice, or assistance or financial support'' from the RFL would actually help them. It's just as likely they'll mar their progress. They can't even grow the game in England. It's probably best if they make their own way in the world.

I'd urge you to consider the following. 

 

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Edited November 6, 2023 by fighting irish

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

31 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Your criticism of the people, in these fledgling nations actually making things happen (however small their early achievements) is arrogant, condescending and churlish.

Please point to anywhere that I have criticised them.

The rest of your post doesn't deserve a response.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

I too am less than lukewarm about Scotland and Ireland. My bigger concern is South Wales and, if I may extend that concern, Cumbria, London/SE and Occitanie. I'm deliberately choosing regions here because that is where my plan would focus - a regional competition in the middle of season where I think we have the space for it. Internationals would remain for October-November.

I'm inclined to agree.

We have England, then (daylight) France, then (a little daylight) the Celtic nations, then the other European nations.

We have to acknowledge that there will be no credible international competition for England mid season. We ain't traveling. They ain't traveling here.

If we want mid-season rep games, we're going to have to look within for a while.

Reverting back to GB would be us basically giving up on those other 3 nations. If there was a regional comp mid-season, at least there's a pathway if that's what we do; but then that alienates France further. What then for them? EU All-Stars with France, Ireland, Greece, Italy...?

It's a sorry mess that we have only got ourselves to blame for. I long for the days of regular 4N competitions. I was so excited about a possible 8-team confederation cup. The international game up here is in the worst state I've ever seen it since I started watching.

[gogledd]

14 hours ago, WelshpoolMarauder said:

How many full time staff do the Netherlands have? I doubt it's many, if any, yet they seem to be developing.

It's not all about people being paid to develop the game, you need people with passion willing to give their own time to do things first. 

The name that springs to mind for me in Wales is Ian Golden, who lives and breathes the game and has done an incredible amount for rugby league in Wales. What a difference another dozen like him could make.

Wales don't ave any full time staff as far as I know.

I know Ian very well and agree he is passionate about Rugby League in Wales and as a journalist has raised the profile of all variations of the game. But I know Ian will be the first to say, hes not a player, coach or manager, he's not a development officer and although he works his sock off, he's limited in his influence outside the press box.

We do have some passionate and dedicated people in Wales Rugby League such as Mark Jones the current CEO, Steve Jones the Wales Wheelchair Development Officer - but they're working within severe financial constraints; the WRL really doesn't have any money and needs help from the RFL and others to ensure Wales remains a viable competitive RL nation.

[nadera78]

2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The 2022 Netherlands domestic comp was 5 teams playing 4 games each. Your bar doesn't seem to be very high for what counts. 

If you didn't know the IRL criteria then you should have said so when joining the thread.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

52 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

If you didn't know the IRL criteria then you should have said so when joining the thread.

Sorry - didn't realise that was the rule!

The gist of the thread was about what to do with the other home nations' international teams. You seemed happy to decry Scotland's efforts whilst using the example of the Netherlands as what they should aspire to. I was just pointing out that in reality, there's very little between the domestic scenes in both countries. Despite what another poster has accused me of, I am fully supportive of all efforts to develop the sport, and think the fact that so many countries are playing the game is fantastic. However, the reality is that many of these setups are run by dedicated and passionate volunteers with extremely limited resources, and these teams will ultimately struggle to compete against nations that are drawing their players from fully pro competitions. 

[nadera78]

12 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Sorry - didn't realise that was the rule!

The gist of the thread was about what to do with the other home nations' international teams. You seemed happy to decry Scotland's efforts whilst using the example of the Netherlands as what they should aspire to. I was just pointing out that in reality, there's very little between the domestic scenes in both countries. Despite what another poster has accused me of, I am fully supportive of all efforts to develop the sport, and think the fact that so many countries are playing the game is fantastic. However, the reality is that many of these setups are run by dedicated and passionate volunteers with extremely limited resources, and these teams will ultimately struggle to compete against nations that are drawing their players from fully pro competitions. 

There's a huge difference between 5 teams playing one another home and away, and 3 teams playing odd fixtures when they can find enough players.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

There's a huge difference between 5 teams playing one another home and away, and 3 teams playing odd fixtures when they can find enough players.

They didn't play home and away - they only played once

[JT RL]

Play France once a year.

One year in England, the next in France

3 pm kick off 

The same weekend, on a Saturday every year

The same venues

Give the French a £few million a year to galvanise their squad and team

Play a 5 Nation Amateur Tournament for students or U21 every year.

 

 

 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, JT RL said:

Play France once a year.

One year in England, the next in France

3 pm kick off 

The same weekend, on a Saturday every year

The same venues

Give the French a £few million a year to galvanise their squad and team

Play a 5 Nation Amateur Tournament for students or U21 every year.

 

 

 

Who’s going to give the French a few million? 

[eal]

Wales is a case of what might have been. I remember the raucous home crowds at the 1995 RLWC and how strong that team was. They are a world away from that now. At this point them playing one test per year would be an improvement. Ireland and Scotland are pretty much non-existent when it comes to rugby league, except for the World Cup when Australian players are flown over and told which country they are representing this time.

[Damien]

9 hours ago, eal said:

Wales is a case of what might have been. I remember the raucous home crowds at the 1995 RLWC and how strong that team was. They are a world away from that now. At this point them playing one test per year would be an improvement. Ireland and Scotland are pretty much non-existent when it comes to rugby league, except for the World Cup when Australian players are flown over and told which country they are representing this time.

The funny thing is that Wales are probably stronger now than they were back then when it comes to domestic players, pathways and clubs. 1995 they obviously had some good players but it was built on sand and off the back of signing RU players with a sprinkling of heritage players.

[jim_57]

It’s not Wales, Ireland or Scotland but in regards to improving NH opponents I think France with England’s backing should lobby together to get the residency rule changed back to 3 years, but for tier 2 nations only. 5 years still for tier 1 to prevent/delay a repeat of Radradra.

Just a simple thing that could help them improve and it helps combat the heritage factor other nations have used to launch above them. Doesn’t really change much for any nation other than France and could help them improve which can only be good for International RL.

Not sure who fits the bill currently but they’ve had the likes of Greenshields and Kheirallah in the past. If it only meant another 1-2 professional players available it would be a pretty simple win. Wales would also get the occasional player become eligible through Crusaders for that matter.

[Gomersall]

47 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

It’s not Wales, Ireland or Scotland but in regards to improving NH opponents I think France with England’s backing should lobby together to get the residency rule changed back to 3 years, but for tier 2 nations only. 5 years still for tier 1 to prevent/delay a repeat of Radradra.

Just a simple thing that could help them improve and it helps combat the heritage factor other nations have used to launch above them. Doesn’t really change much for any nation other than France and could help them improve which can only be good for International RL.

Not sure who fits the bill currently but they’ve had the likes of Greenshields and Kheirallah in the past. If it only meant another 1-2 professional players available it would be a pretty simple win. Wales would also get the occasional player become eligible through Crusaders for that matter.

It’s not the residency rule that has stymied the nations with less diaspora it’s the grandparent rule and I doubt that will change any time soon.