Catalans

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Only if viewing figures have increased in line with the improvement in game quality and excitement. Sky wouldn’t care if the games are terrible as long as more people were watching. 

Thanks Eddie,

[Gav Wilson]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Wow, that could be an exclusive Gav:-

FRENCH TEAM WITHDRAWS FROM BRITISH RUGBY LEAGUE, SKY SLASH FUNDING, BRITISH RUGBY LEAGUE GOES PART TIME.

Yeah right OK.

Pretty much, yes. 

[Adelaide Tiger]

Firstly, it is absolutely pathetic that Catalans are being asked to pay for this.  

I recall reading a post on here a couple of years ago stating that Leeds chartered a flight and encouraged local business people to join them for a weekend in the south of France.  No doubt each attendee charged it to their expenses account.   Therefore most, if not all of the cost of the flight was covered by the business people.  Is this something that should be encouraged for all clubs to do as it will certainly introduce business people to the game?  Or, is it a case of clubs just wanting Catalans to foot the bill as it is the easier option?

P.S. If I am incorrect about the about then I am sure someone will let me know.

 

 

 

 

 

[northamptoncougar]

Small time mentality in a small time sport run by small time people.

I hope Catalans invest in a rat hole shove the clubs and referee's in there every 2nd week.

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Firstly, it is absolutely pathetic that Catalans are being asked to pay for this.  

I recall reading a post on here a couple of years ago stating that Leeds chartered a flight and encouraged local business people to join them for a weekend in the south of France.  No doubt each attendee charged it to their expenses account.   Therefore most, if not all of the cost of the flight was covered by the business people.  Is this something that should be encouraged for all clubs to do as it will certainly introduce business people to the game?  Or, is it a case of clubs just wanting Catalans to foot the bill as it is the easier option?

P.S. If I am incorrect about the about then I am sure someone will let me know.

There is certainly an argument that if Catalans are paying then clubs just won't bother with this kind of thing. What may have cost a club very little or nothing, because they do this kind of thing, may now be costing Catalans 30k a game (or whatever sum is decided).

[Worzel]

58 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

How bloody pompous, isn't this a debating site you tell us your thoughts and I ask why, just back up your statements if they have any relevance, you made them and no I don't know what you mean that is why I asked for clarification.

You have sliced nothing to death, just headline points.

 

You know precisely what I mean, that wasn't my only post on this thread. You've read the others. For clarity, let's pretend you're not being disingenuous:

1. Catalans don't receive a subsidy from the UK game, they receive an equal share of the TV revenues which they contribute equally to creating the content for. The UK game decided to have a French club in the league, to increase the value of that league to broadcasters and commercial partners. It was our choice, we even made organisations bid to be the one we brought in.

2. Catalans ability to grow their local audience, and their commercial revenue, is a model to be followed not something to be resented. They have local competition for what they achieve, just like the other clubs, it isn't a given. Even the idea that the revenues they and the region receive from travelling away fans is some sort of "munificence" is contemptibly wrong-headed. People travel because they want to. They are receiving value, which Catalans' existence creates. If Catalans didn't exist, that value wouldn't exist. It isn't a gift. Warrington, Wigan, Saints etc etc take far more fans to Catalans than they do to Hull KR, and they choose to do so for a reason.  

3. The mission of Super League is to grow TV and other commercial revenues, in order to increase distributions throughout the game. The critical value-driver in competitive sports leagues, aside from the game play itself, is "uncertainty". As a fully-resourced club, competing consistently at the highest level, Catalans bring far more competitive intensity to the league than several other organisations. They demonstrably add value. If other clubs cannot afford the entry costs required to compete in this league, including the cost of any foreign travel, then they should leave the league and allow others who can do so to join instead. 

4. I wouldn't choose to throw shade on any other club, but the raw facts are that if we are evaluating clubs on the net value they bring to the league, with a view to considering which clubs to charge additional costs to, then Catalans are nowhere near the top of the list. Huddersfield, Castleford, Wakefield and Salford to name just 4 are way below them in that "negative pecking order". Several of those clubs genuinely do only exist because the supporters of other clubs in the league subsidise them by visiting once or twice per season. Several of them have not regularly contributed consistent "competitive intensity" to the league for decades, aside from occasional exceptional seasons. 

5. Finally, on a "how do you do business with others" basis this decision stinks. It is not in line with the values of the sport. We are not asking Catalans for this money because we genuinely believe it is right to do so, nobody who understands the mechanics I've just outlined would think so. We are asking them for this money because we have gangsters' leverage: We have the power to ask it of them, we think they can afford it, and we think that for them the alternative is worse. That is a protection racket, or blackmail. It is not how ethical businesses behave, let alone a business venture where all 12 participants core purpose is to collaborate in order to grow the overall value of the sport, and then share the growing proceeds. 

I hope you enjoy the salami....!!

[MrIzzard]

Been saying this for years Rl is a professional sport run by amatures the Rfl are diluting the product drip by drip.

 

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

So when as the reduction in the TV deal been effected by none attractive games, and if so who's fault is it that games were not as attractive that in 3 years we have dropped from 40M to 21M per season.

So this season has by all reports been very good there was some excellent games as was last season with points difference separating the top 3 clubs, will that go a long way to an uplift in the contract value?

Won't make any difference Harry streaming is the future with 1 FTA a week to drive subscribers 

If I'm still alive in 2027 any new deal will prove my point

Edited October 2 by ATLANTISMAN

[Eddie]

24 minutes ago, Damien said:

There is certainly an argument that if Catalans are paying then clubs just won't bother with this kind of thing. What may have cost a club very little or nothing, because they do this kind of thing, may now be costing Catalans 30k a game (or whatever sum is decided).

£30k being their first 1,500 tickets sold, it’s ridiculous. 

[Dave T]

4 hours ago, Worzel said:

Dave, I'm really surprised you can't think beyond this. The whole purpose of Super League, and indeed any business venture, is not how to share out the cake that already exists but how to make the cake bigger.

1. Catalans TV revenues are not a "loss" to the game, or a subsidy. The earn them by putting a team on the pitch that competes, with which we get TV contracts and from which they earn an equal share. 

2. The only question when evaluating clubs' value to the league should be "do they enable us to grow the commercial revenues in the sport in future". By any measurable criteria, Catalans do. And if we're in the game of ranking which of the clubs bring the most value, then they're not even in the bottom half. TV companies and sponsors want one, simple thing: Compelling content, the excites audiences and consumers. Close matches, with great players, between two competitive sides are the value-creation engine. Catalans are one of the few clubs we have that do so consistently.#

Aside from the fact we shouldn't be so myopic as to think of "UK money" and "money going to France", because it's rugby league we love not some random line on a map, the <£1.5m per season that goes to Catalans is a far better investment in future value-creation than the same money being sent to Huddersfield and Castleford, to name just two alternatives.

This demonstrates a total lack of strategic thought, or the ability to even evaluate things commercially. I know that people like Rhodri Jones are muppets who've failed upwards within the RFL, never having achieved success anywhere else either, but I really do expect better decisions from the leaders of St Helens, Wigan, Leeds, Hull KR etc. 

This isn't the decision I would take, to be clear on that. 

However - I don't think there is anything wrong with the way I've positioned it. Bills need to be paid. If they aren't then the game will take more short term decisions (as per my point that these developments will simply be rejected in future if not costed).

Whilst I don't disagree with the points you make - cold hard cash is needed and we shouldn't keep making decisions that don't have a business case to back it up.

- In the NRL when the Dolphins were admitted, each club were given more money, and the Dolphins had to make commitments of millions of dollars to directly develop RL in Australia.

- In the URC when the decision was around whether the SA teams were to be admitted - they brought a shedload of TV money with them. 

- When we make decisions about TWP or Toulouse - the existing clubs are expected to incur costs and are just told to suck it up.

As I say I wouldn't come to the decision that RLC has done - but it isn't unusual. I think it was you who brought up the Champions League - which was a bad example as Prague are given less money than Man City because less TV money comes from their territory. 

Other examples historically have seen clubs who are on TV more get more money etc. So an equal split isn't the only model in play here. 

Edited October 2 by Dave T

[whatmichaelsays]

59 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Firstly, it is absolutely pathetic that Catalans are being asked to pay for this.  

I recall reading a post on here a couple of years ago stating that Leeds chartered a flight and encouraged local business people to join them for a weekend in the south of France.  No doubt each attendee charged it to their expenses account.   Therefore most, if not all of the cost of the flight was covered by the business people.  Is this something that should be encouraged for all clubs to do as it will certainly introduce business people to the game?  Or, is it a case of clubs just wanting Catalans to foot the bill as it is the easier option?

P.S. If I am incorrect about the about then I am sure someone will let me know.

 

Leeds have done this from the start of Catalans being in SL. The official club travel to Perpignan has always been advertised as a "corporate" trip, rather than a supporter trip. 

The club charters a flight for the players and staff, the club sells the remaining seats at a rate that means the players and staff are effectively paid for and when the plane lands, guests are taken off to a nice restaurant where the commercial team fills them with steak and wine before the game. 

Leeds can do that because they have a wide mix of sponsors and they also have a lot of goodwill from their sponsors - the club treats them like gods and it's one of the reasons why, when you look at Leeds shirts over many years, the logos stay the same every year. They don't have the revolving door of sponsors that other clubs have. Do other clubs have that same market? I don't know, but it would be interesting to see how many do try it. 

Edited October 2 by whatmichaelsays

[Hopie]

6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I feel you harbour unreasonable resentment and opinions around the NRL and it’s responsibilities and commitment international RL, so your opinion on this matter is of interest to me to see if your harbour any legitimate resentment or negative feelings against the governors of the sport in the NH for undermining the one non-British European partner of the elite club game in the continent.

That you think a decision to make Catalans responsible for the travel costs of visiting SL teams is fair and balanced, certainly tells me all I need to know, so thanks for the response.

My opinions on the NRL commitments are borne out by facts and experience, if you have none of these to present then my opinion is unlikely to change. Trying to make this a personal issue, or attempting to drag me into chats on other matters will not change my opinion, and I hope this will be the end of that attempt. Lets face it, you made the comment with an opinion of me, and that was not going to change from any answer.

The payment of travel expenses by overseas teams, whether that be Catalans, Toulouse, Ottawa, Paris, New York, Toronto or Wellington should be decided on the same basis. Toulouse and Catalans are now on an equal footing which is fair, any future changes to this arrangement should also keep it that way.  

[Harry Stottle]

50 minutes ago, Worzel said:

You know precisely what I mean, that wasn't my only post on this thread. You've read the others. For clarity, let's pretend you're not being disingenuous:

1. Catalans don't receive a subsidy from the UK game, they receive an equal share of the TV revenues which they contribute equally to creating the content for. The UK game decided to have a French club in the league, to increase the value of that league to broadcasters and commercial partners. It was our choice, we even made organisations bid to be the one we brought in.

2. Catalans ability to grow their local audience, and their commercial revenue, is a model to be followed not something to be resented. They have local competition for what they achieve, just like the other clubs, it isn't a given. Even the idea that the revenues they and the region receive from travelling away fans is some sort of "munificence" is contemptibly wrong-headed. People travel because they want to. They are receiving value, which Catalans' existence creates. If Catalans didn't exist, that value wouldn't exist. It isn't a gift. Warrington, Wigan, Saints etc etc take far more fans to Catalans than they do to Hull KR, and they choose to do so for a reason.  

3. The mission of Super League is to grow TV and other commercial revenues, in order to increase distributions throughout the game. The critical value-driver in competitive sports leagues, aside from the game play itself, is "uncertainty". As a fully-resourced club, competing consistently at the highest level, Catalans bring far more competitive intensity to the league than several other organisations. They demonstrably add value. If other clubs cannot afford the entry costs required to compete in this league, including the cost of any foreign travel, then they should leave the league and allow others who can do so to join instead. 

4. I wouldn't choose to throw shade on any other club, but the raw facts are that if we are evaluating clubs on the net value they bring to the league, with a view to considering which clubs to charge additional costs to, then Catalans are nowhere near the top of the list. Huddersfield, Castleford, Wakefield and Salford to name just 4 are way below them in that "negative pecking order". Several of those clubs genuinely do only exist because the supporters of other clubs in the league subsidise them by visiting once or twice per season. Several of them have not regularly contributed consistent "competitive intensity" to the league for decades, aside from occasional exceptional seasons. 

5. Finally, on a "how do you do business with others" basis this decision stinks. It is not in line with the values of the sport. We are not asking Catalans for this money because we genuinely believe it is right to do so, nobody who understands the mechanics I've just outlined would think so. We are asking them for this money because we have gangsters' leverage: We have the power to ask it of them, we think they can afford it, and we think that for them the alternative is worse. That is a protection racket, or blackmail. It is not how ethical businesses behave, let alone a business venture where all 12 participants core purpose is to collaborate in order to grow the overall value of the sport, and then share the growing proceeds. 

I hope you enjoy the salami....!!

Thanks for that, yes I have read all you have put in this thread but only asked you the question re your point of  'small town' and then 'small Super League Clubs' finally those SL clubs who want 'Catalan out of Super League'. Only point 4 comes anywhere near answering my questions to your statement.

I haven't contradicted or questioned anything else you have decided to emphasise here.

You have wasted your time slicing the salami, no more than point 4 was relevant to our discussion.

But thanks anyway, I can see how this topic irks you, but you don't need to swing out at everybody.

 

[Father Ted]

As the RFL/SL are to make Catalans pay for all travel costs of clubs and match officials to Perpignan maybe the Dragons could offset the costs somewhat.

Cut out hotels by hiring an aircraft for the day to depart the UK early morning and return late night a couple of hours or so after the end of the game.

Clubs should take around 30-35 people, Match Officials 6. Maximum 50 people. Maybe Catalans could then offer a day trip package to supporters including air fare, transfer and hospitality. Airbus and Boeing planes have around 170 seats so 110 could be available to supporters. Priced right and Catalans could offset a substantial part of the costs depending on fans take up.

If Catalans put on a good package for fans I'm sure there'd be a good take up which would help them with this nonsense.

The stumbling block of course would be the RFL/SL who could object to the whole business.  

[17 stone giant]

There must be a serious lack of money in the sport if it's considered necessary to do stuff like this.

It's a few days trip to France, not a world tour lasting 6 months.

Very sad state of affairs.

[40yearsatlondon]

On 01/10/2024 at 12:30, Dovster said:

I have to presume that SL, RFL, IMG or whoever really would like Catalans to fail.

absolutely bang on!!!....idea is to knock out catalan...bring in the bulls...good squad next year,MASSIVE WAGE BILL(WONDER WHO PAYS THAT)...then add goole in %?^ years ...JOB DONE

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

There must be a serious lack of money in the sport if it's considered necessary to do stuff like this.

It's a few days trip to France, not a world tour lasting 6 months.

Very sad state of affairs.

Meanwhile tiny amateur football clubs from all over Europe travel enormous distances in the early rounds of the three club competitions without complaint. 

[The Future is League]

7 minutes ago, 40yearsatlondon said:

absolutely bang on!!!....idea is to knock out catalan...bring in the bulls...good squad next year,MASSIVE WAGE BILL(WONDER WHO PAYS THAT)...then add goole in %?^ years ...JOB DONE

In the meantime The Bulls are asking for more money.

https://www.totalrl.com/bradford-bulls-issue-warning-and-call-for-more-financial-support-from-rfl/

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/sport/sportlatest/24597617.bradford-bulls-anger-reciprocated-img-fears-grow-larger/

[Dave T]

33 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Meanwhile tiny amateur football clubs from all over Europe travel enormous distances in the early rounds of the three club competitions without complaint. 

How are their costs funded? Without that information, this means nowt.

[Taffy Tiger]

3 hours ago, Worzel said:

You know precisely what I mean, that wasn't my only post on this thread. You've read the others. For clarity, let's pretend you're not being disingenuous:

1. Catalans don't receive a subsidy from the UK game, they receive an equal share of the TV revenues which they contribute equally to creating the content for. The UK game decided to have a French club in the league, to increase the value of that league to broadcasters and commercial partners. It was our choice, we even made organisations bid to be the one we brought in.

2. Catalans ability to grow their local audience, and their commercial revenue, is a model to be followed not something to be resented. They have local competition for what they achieve, just like the other clubs, it isn't a given. Even the idea that the revenues they and the region receive from travelling away fans is some sort of "munificence" is contemptibly wrong-headed. People travel because they want to. They are receiving value, which Catalans' existence creates. If Catalans didn't exist, that value wouldn't exist. It isn't a gift. Warrington, Wigan, Saints etc etc take far more fans to Catalans than they do to Hull KR, and they choose to do so for a reason.  

3. The mission of Super League is to grow TV and other commercial revenues, in order to increase distributions throughout the game. The critical value-driver in competitive sports leagues, aside from the game play itself, is "uncertainty". As a fully-resourced club, competing consistently at the highest level, Catalans bring far more competitive intensity to the league than several other organisations. They demonstrably add value. If other clubs cannot afford the entry costs required to compete in this league, including the cost of any foreign travel, then they should leave the league and allow others who can do so to join instead. 

4. I wouldn't choose to throw shade on any other club, but the raw facts are that if we are evaluating clubs on the net value they bring to the league, with a view to considering which clubs to charge additional costs to, then Catalans are nowhere near the top of the list. Huddersfield, Castleford, Wakefield and Salford to name just 4 are way below them in that "negative pecking order". Several of those clubs genuinely do only exist because the supporters of other clubs in the league subsidise them by visiting once or twice per season. Several of them have not regularly contributed consistent "competitive intensity" to the league for decades, aside from occasional exceptional seasons. 

5. Finally, on a "how do you do business with others" basis this decision stinks. It is not in line with the values of the sport. We are not asking Catalans for this money because we genuinely believe it is right to do so, nobody who understands the mechanics I've just outlined would think so. We are asking them for this money because we have gangsters' leverage: We have the power to ask it of them, we think they can afford it, and we think that for them the alternative is worse. That is a protection racket, or blackmail. It is not how ethical businesses behave, let alone a business venture where all 12 participants core purpose is to collaborate in order to grow the overall value of the sport, and then share the growing proceeds. 

I hope you enjoy the salami....!!

Not sure how you have come to the conclusion of Huddersfield , Castleford , Wakefield and Salford being the 4 teams not to contribute consistent 'competititve intensity' to the league for decades

 

Here's a list of top 6 finishes since SL began

 

Cas - 11 (inc a regular season win only 7 years ago)

Huddersfield - 7

Salford - 5

Wakey - 4

HKR -4 

 

Edited October 2 by Taffy Tiger

[Eddie]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

How are their costs funded? Without that information, this means nowt.

They pay themselves, UEFA don’t pay for it all and never have. 

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, Father Ted said:

As the RFL/SL are to make Catalans pay for all travel costs of clubs and match officials to Perpignan maybe the Dragons could offset the costs somewhat.

Cut out hotels by hiring an aircraft for the day to depart the UK early morning and return late night a couple of hours or so after the end of the game.

Clubs should take around 30-35 people, Match Officials 6. Maximum 50 people. Maybe Catalans could then offer a day trip package to supporters including air fare, transfer and hospitality. Airbus and Boeing planes have around 170 seats so 110 could be available to supporters. Priced right and Catalans could offset a substantial part of the costs depending on fans take up.

If Catalans put on a good package for fans I'm sure there'd be a good take up which would help them with this nonsense.

The stumbling block of course would be the RFL/SL who could object to the whole business.  

Officials have flown with the away team many times hilarious  

[HawkMan]

6 minutes ago, Eddie said:

They pay themselves, UEFA don’t pay for it all and never have. 

Clubs get prize money just for appearing in the qualifying rounds. Below is monies for UEFA Conference League,  the lowest ranked competition.  The other two, Champions and Europa Leagues will be correspondingly higher.

• First qualifying round elimination: €150,000
• Second qualifying round elimination: €350,000
• Third qualifying round elimination: €550,000
• Play-off round elimination: €750,000
• Qualified to Group Stage: €2,940,000
• Match won in Group Stage: €500,000
• Match drawn in Group Stage: €166,000
• 1st in Group Stage: €650,000
• 2nd in Group Stage: €325,000
• Knockout round play-offs: €300,000
• Round of 16: €600,000
• Quarter-final: €1,000,000
• Semi-final: €2,000,000
• Runner-up: €3,000,000
• Champion: €5,000,000

 

Edited October 2 by HawkMan

[Dave T]

Just now, Eddie said:

They pay themselves, UEFA don’t pay for it all and never have. 

For playing in a qualifying round of one of the European competitions they get a fixed fee of euro175k per round.

The teams in the qualifiers benefit from a pot of euro132m in payments depending on how they do. They get further funding as they qualify for one of the three Euro comps. 

The distributions are eye watering - there are no poor tiny Euro football clubs scrimping to pay for travel in this comp - they are being allocated huge amounts of cash. 

The distribution doc for UEFA also highlights how those clubs who come from markets that attract most media money, get the biggest shares of certain pots. Similar to what we are effectively talking about in SL.  

 

[Eddie]

35 minutes ago, Dave T said:

For playing in a qualifying round of one of the European competitions they get a fixed fee of euro175k per round.

The teams in the qualifiers benefit from a pot of euro132m in payments depending on how they do. They get further funding as they qualify for one of the three Euro comps. 

The distributions are eye watering - there are no poor tiny Euro football clubs scrimping to pay for travel in this comp - they are being allocated huge amounts of cash. 

The distribution doc for UEFA also highlights how those clubs who come from markets that attract most media money, get the biggest shares of certain pots. Similar to what we are effectively talking about in SL.  

 

£175k is a lot less than SL clubs get, and in many cases they have much more difficult and costly journeys than from England to Perpignan, at short notice too. A Moldovan club travelling to Iceland midweek with 2 weeks notice is not easier than a SL club going to Perpignan when they’ve known about it for months, even with £175k. Some of these clubs play in tiny leagues with tiny numbers of fans.