smart motorways - now the real reason

[Tommygilf]

I agree that when it is busy smart motorways do work from my experience. I drive from Wakefield to Leeds and till the smart mway was installed traffic at the junction between the M1 and M62 was a nightmare. Now more days than not the traffic even when its busy is usually still flowing. 

I can also agree that there are definitely some parts where this is just not necessary and it doesn't work well. Judging by where a lot of cameras are on the roads anyway it wouldn't surprise me if money was a factor too. 

Its about tinkering the system i guess.

[Northern Eel]

17 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Wrong, they're computer controlled using real time traffic flow data (look for the small camera boxes on the gantries,  usually blue, yellow or green in colour, they're the traffic monitoring camera).

They can be over-ridden but only by the senior police officer in the regional control centre (the NW one is in Newton-le-willows, St.helens),  and they only do this when they need to slow traffic down such as for an incident.

The only other settings that can be used to determine the speed limit is where local pollution levels are being exceeded and the limit can be lowered to say 60mph to reduce those local levels.

They're often still on when I'm heading home from Bradford at 10.30pm on a Tuesday evening. Does the computer need a bit of training?

[Graham]

16 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

Speeding often has little to do with crashes. I drive often at 130 to 140 mph and never been in a Crash. And many others in Germany do far more than that and yet the Crash statistischen are not much different to the UK or elsewhere!

Often the cause of a Crash is down to poor diving skills and lack of concentration. I am concentrate more diving fast than at 20 mph. 

Naturally a high speeding Crash will have bigger impact. But people die crashing at 70mph. Passing your test in Germany requires far more than in the UK. Maybe Driving test standards and what you learn should be looked at more than speeding.

From these statistics LRL the death rates on motorways are dramatically different when comparing UK and Germany:

Quote

Professor Benjamin Heydecker, the Head of the Centre for Transport Studies at University College London also found that 'during the 45 years since the current motorway speed limit of 70mph was first implemented, the risk of road accident fatality per vehicle-km of travel has fallen to less than 1/13 of what it was'. But as Heydecker explains in his piece for the London School of Economics (LSE), roads have become safer over that period of time due to a variety of factors including road and vehicle development and not just the introduction of the speed limit.

 

[Trojan]

19 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Wrong, they're computer controlled using real time traffic flow data (look for the small camera boxes on the gantries,  usually blue, yellow or green in colour, they're the traffic monitoring camera).

They can be over-ridden but only by the senior police officer in the regional control centre (the NW one is in Newton-le-willows, St.helens),  and they only do this when they need to slow traffic down such as for an incident.

The only other settings that can be used to determine the speed limit is where local pollution levels are being exceeded and the limit can be lowered to say 60mph to reduce those local levels.

You believe what you like  I noticed it over and over again on the M62 between Jct's 28 and 25.  The signs came on on the dot of 16-00 regardless of the traffic.  And on a morning, again regardless of the traffic the lights were on at rush hour.  My experience on the M1 last year only confirms my opinion.  The only smart thing about this motorways, is the motorist who's been done by one, he'll be smarting all right.

[Shadow]

5 minutes ago, Trojan said:

You believe what you like  I noticed it over and over again on the M62 between Jct's 28 and 25.  The signs came on on the dot of 16-00 regardless of the traffic.  And on a morning, again regardless of the traffic the lights were on at rush hour.  My experience on the M1 last year only confirms my opinion.  The only smart thing about this motorways, is the motorist who's been done by one, he'll be smarting all right.

Could you give us a list of the other laws we should be allowed to break if we’re running late ?

[Lounge Room Lizard]

10 hours ago, JohnM said:

For once, breaking my self-imposed embargo on posting in AOB owing to what i think  is the the the high number of fundamentally flawed posts . 

Looks like our roads are safer than those of Germany : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Speed ia beyond doubt a  major factor in both the incidence and severity of accidents. There is a huge body of independent reasearch that proves this.

For example: 

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/speed_is_a_central_issue_in_road_safety/speed_and_accident_risk_en

 

Thanks for the info but that doesnt really give any reason to say speed kills or not. From my understanding thats just road deaths- In Cities, Countryside and covering all types of roads. It also doesnt say how or what caused those deaths. Speed doesnt kill. Its poor driving skills that do. Failure to respect the traffic or weather conditions. The failure to check before pulling out (or back in) and the arrogance of people that pull stunts without thinking or others or using the phone. Blame is laid on Speed for me instead of looking at the real cause of crashes and fatalities.

F

Quote

From these statistics LRL the death rates on motorways are dramatically different when comparing UK and Germany:

Quote

Similar to the points I made to JohnM. The Chart doesnt give that clear a picture. In the UK in 2015 there was 2.300 Miles (3.702KM) of motorway while Germany had in 2016, 12.993KM (8.073 Miles). Thats well over 3 times the distance of the UK so clearly more accidents/deaths would happen. 

The problem with any statistics is that it rarely gives you a detailed account. For instance in Germany last year a Bus Driver didnt pay attention and crashed killing himself and 17 people. How many accidents were actually he result of people using their phones or was in otherways distracted? Its the law for Germans (Not for foreigners) that in Winter you have to use winter tyres.A number of accidents in Germany have been caused, because people have summer tyres on and lose control. No statistics will give the cause of an accident. Speed does have a role to a certain extent but its usually these other factors that are the result of crashes rather than just pointblank saying Speed was at fault. I have seen bad crashes happen with somebody going less than 70mph and just pullout with out looking or indicating, causing a 3 Car pile up.Thankfully I wasnt involved. 

For me you drive to the conditions. Just because the limit is 70 I wouldnt drive that fast if visibility or road and weather conditions were not good. By the same token if theres little traffic on the road then I will drive fast. If I see  a couple of vehicles infront in the distance overtaking a truck, then I slow down and overtake them carefully and not slam on the breaks or tailgate somebody at the last minute.

[Padge]

Population size, average miles travelled, miles of motorway per journey/per car/per car occupancy/ per/per/per/.

There are so many factors in trying to compare nations a to make it very difficult.

Having said that, if you stick to the rules of the road, including the speed limit, you are less likely to die in a crash and will definitely not get fined for speeding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lounge Room Lizard]

7 minutes ago, Padge said:

Population size, average miles travelled, miles of motorway per journey/per car/per car occupancy/ per/per/per/.

There are so many factors in trying to compare nations a to make it very difficult.

Having said that, if you stick to the rules of the road, including the speed limit, you are less likely to die in a crash and will definitely not get fined for speeding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lucky 50% of the German Autobahns have no speed limit ;-)Thats not going to change anytime soon thankfully. The german Auto Industry is too powerful and the voters would generally be against it. The German Politicians have enough anger to deal with.

[GUBRATS]

On 2 February 2018 at 5:06 PM, graveyard johnny said:

if anyone using a smart motorway has been driving on it wondering where on earth the improvements or new benefits  are for the motorist (that has paid for this total joke)- in fact its worse than the old motorway - well we should have known the real reason shouldn't we?

speed cameras that never sleep, lined up like big brother robots ready to fine the ordinary tired confused honest working person as they go about their day

71mph with out any leniency and its a fine - points etc

sneakily done

this country is making me sick

Simple , dont speed , im sick to death of having 40 ton trucks trying to push me out of the way when im doing the speed limit of 50 MPH on the current road works on the M6 

Id happily see the limit set at 50 even when the works are finished rather than all the Audi and VW drivers believing they are invincible driving like idiots in bad weather 

No excuses with most modern vehicles with cruise control 

[gingerjon]

36 minutes ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

Lucky 50% of the German Autobahns have no speed limit ;-)Thats not going to change anytime soon thankfully. The german Auto Industry is too powerful and the voters would generally be against it. The German Politicians have enough anger to deal with.

Is this the same German auto industry that was meant to be getting us an awesome Brexit deal because reasons?

They seem pretty rubbish at this politicking lark. They should probably stick to putting dodgy software on their emissions sensors.

Speed kills. It's an actual, obvious fact. No squirming or whataboutery will change that.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

 

What the hell does Brexit have to do with this thread? Why should the German Auto Industry do anything for the UK? There is another thread for that I think.

Ignore the fact that Speed doesnt kill its poor driving that causes the accidents. People crash at 20 or 30 mph. People have been seriously injured or killed at 50mph. Shall we reduce the speed limit to that? Maybe if people was taught not just the basics, but advanced driving skills and the test to get a licence was much harder, then Road Safety would also improve. When you look at the way some people drive, its a wonder they have passed their test! To just blame speed for accidents is wrong

[Trojan]

3 hours ago, Shadow said:

Could you give us a list of the other laws we should be allowed to break if we’re running late ?

I don't advocate breaking any law.  But to me this seems like attempted entrapment.

[Just Browny]

37 minutes ago, Trojan said:

I don't advocate breaking any law.  But to me this seems like attempted entrapment.

Following the same logic, the presence of any police officer in the street is also attempted entrapment.

[Trojan]

Just now, Just Browny said:

Following the same logic, the presence of any police officer in the street is also attempted entrapment.

What I meant was setting speed limits when the density of traffic does not justify it.  As in the examples I posted.

[Padge]

26 minutes ago, Trojan said:

What I meant was setting speed limits when the density of traffic does not justify it.  As in the examples I posted.

The speed limits are clearly posted regardless of what you think the situation is, read the signs, obey the limit.

Just because you don't see a reason for the limit being changed doesn't mean you shouldn't obey it.

[Trojan]

32 minutes ago, Padge said:

The speed limits are clearly posted regardless of what you think the situation is, read the signs, obey the limit.

Just because you don't see a reason for the limit being changed doesn't mean you shouldn't obey it.

Where did I say I didn't?    All I said was that one day in June last year on the M1 between Jct. 29 and Jct. 25 the limit was set at 60.  On the dot of 10-00AM the limit was removed.  The traffic conditions had not altered, indeed if anything it was slightly busier than it had been 10 minutes earlier.  I believe they are set and unset at certain times regardless of the traffic conditions. The 60 mph limit usually causes some bunching, the 50 limit certainly does.

[JohnM]

Hmmmm.

1. Expert opinion backed by reaserch shows that that climate change is man made. Anyone who disgrees is labeled a climte change denier and riduculed, 

2. Expert opinion also shows that we will be worse off when we leave the EU.  Anyone who dissgrees is labeled as stupid and gets ridiculed.

3. Expert opinion backed by research shows that excessive speed is a factor in some 33% of accidents. Anyone who disagrees is a hero fighting against the oppresion of the poor motorist by governments just trying to grab more money.

[Copa]

I think they are great. The variable speed limit signs are very handy. They also are great at slowing traffic down when a potential hazard is ahead.

I don’t know about the UK but in Australia we also have Average Speed Cameras. Cameras will determine your average speed over significant distances.

[Bob8]

7 hours ago, JohnM said:

Hmmmm.

1. Expert opinion backed by reaserch shows that that climate change is man made. Anyone who disgrees is labeled a climte change denier and riduculed, 

.........

Yes

Guess what, if people look into it and find something and someone else says that is not true because it does not fit with their politics, they deserve to be ridiculed.  You would rightly ridicule it from the left, so ridicule it from the right.

Reality does not care about your political opinions, so look at the reality and do actual research, otherwise it is pompous arrogance.  

On behalf of scientists, sort yourself out.  The climate is changing, this is not because of tree huggers feelings.  Vaccines really do work, though it varies by individual.  The Earth really is round.

This is not because scientists have a big unified political agenda.

But if you can refute it with facts, you would be welcome.  It would make you a scientist.

[JohnM]

I might have explained it better like this.  Expert opinion, based on scientitic research , evidence, analysis etc, etc, is overall accepted and acted upon in a number of fields: climate change, vaccines as you mention. I am sure there are other examples. However, when it comes to road safety,  especially speed and its monitoring and control , all that goes out of the window. ..it seems that some people insist that its just greedy governments wasting money on useless schemes and rooking the poor motorist once again. 

[Bob8]

16 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I might have explained it better like this.  Expert opinion, based on scientitic research , evidence, analysis etc, etc, is overall accepted and acted upon in a number of fields: climate change, vaccines as you mention. I am sure there are other examples. However, when it comes to road safety,  especially speed and its monitoring and control , all that goes out of the window. ..it seems that some people insist that its just greedy governments wasting money on useless schemes and rooking the poor motorist once again. 

Fair enough!

The science just presents a model, what to do about it is the politics.  

I confess, I do wonder when motorists claim they got ticketed at a well known speed trap, that if they knew there was a limit and they knew police would be looking to catch them, why they did not just slow down!

[Griff9of13]

Speeding fines = tax on the stupid/incompetent. Keep up the good work. 

[Robin Evans]

29 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Speeding fines = tax on the stupid/incompetent. Keep up the good work. 

The absent minded and the belligerent....

I've just got my licence back with a lovely new set of endorsements ?

[Griff9of13]

7 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

The absent minded and the belligerent....

I've just got my licence back with a lovely new set of endorsements ?

In 39 years of driving/riding (including a number of years driving for a living and doing over twice the annual mileage of the average driver) I've been caught once; sheer ignorance/lack of attention on my part. No complaints, 100% my own fault.

[Robin Evans]

2 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

In 39 years of driving/riding I've been caught once; sheer ignorance/lack of attention on my part. No complaints, 100% my own fault.

I got collared doing 44 in a 40 once which I thought was guilty but a bit tight.

All the other 6-7 times I've been busted it's cos I've deliberately flouted the law and got caught by a mobile radar or an unmarked car..... my historical general demeaning attitude towards our wonderful boys in blue hasn't done me any favours. 

These days I'm much more pragmatic and keep my gob shut.... just nod affirmatively and gtf out of the police car asap.

I've paid over 500 quid in fines over 3+ decades