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John Drake

3 Aug: SL: Catalans Dragons v Warrington Wolves (Merged Threads)

Who will win?  

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  1. 1. Who will win?

    • Catalans Dragons
      14
    • Warrington Wolves
      7

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  • Poll closed on 03/08/19 at 16:00

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Just watched the end of that game.

The only adult in that ground who comes away with any kind of respect is James Child, he kept his composure surrounded by idiots on the pitch and idiots in the stands.

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5 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

The behaviour of probably 90% of Warrington fans in that video is disgraceful, you can clearly see people in the box wanting nothing to do with any trouble and holding their hands up to show that, but yet the thugs still carry on laying into them.

The rest are screaming obscenities, throwing the V's and generally acting like drunken scummy Brits abroad. I despair at any wire fans even trying to condone their fans' behaviour.

What a sad day for Warrington and for RL.

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5 hours ago, Wildcat said:

When we played Catalans in Perpignan last month there were a few Catalans fans in that top bit goading the Trinity fans near the end of the game.

Nothing too serious but it could have turned nasty - thankfully it didn't. 

The Catalans fans in and around Peprignan after the game were great though.

The problem with that is it only takes a few tanked up, out of control British fans to take umbrage and it kicks off, it happens at most grounds, but we don't see brawls like we saw yesterday, again, probably to do with lots of sun and alcohol completely taking over people and aggression kicking in.

I suppose it also depends on what kind of fan base you have over there, if you've basically got the 18-30 drinking and sniffing club then there's always recipe for trouble, it's in their nature generally.

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5 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think the point about cricket is a decent one. There are big differences in terms of the tribalism on show, but I do also think the player behaviour and aggression does overflow onto the terraces. 

I would also be annoyed if alcohol was banned, as I'm not sure it is the beer in the ground that is the issue, but the natural first step may need to be increased stewarding and policing to give the perception of a safer environment. 

I don't think cricket fans use the match officials as excuses to behave badly which seems to be epidemic in football and RL!

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35 minutes ago, St Reatham said:

The difference is that referees don’t lambast players or coaches who make mistakes.

A player is allowed to tell a ref his opinion, rugby league players are some of the most respectful when it comes to interaction with officials. I think the bad language that was heard was to do with the fact that a lot of Warrington players families where in the stands.

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1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

Yeah, I thought it was weird too.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I have nowt against Hull fans (even OF seemed a very nice man!), and have no desire to use any other club to defend any Wire fans.

The example was around context that there have been some issues with the Frenh fans in that corner raised by two other people in recent games.

There is nothing in me referring to Hulls game, no need for any offence to be taken mate.

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On the game itself, a good win for Catalans. They put on some good attacking moves and limited Warrington's opportunities. They had a determined attitude to win, one that is often lacking from them. That was awful for Warrington. A really hard game for them a week after a semi final, an injury to Blake Austin and possible suspensions incoming.

The discipline from both teams was absolutely shocking. In football, teams are often charged with bringing the game into disrepute or failing to control their players. I don't know if there is such a punishment in rugby league, but if there is it should be brought here. A number of high and dangerous tackles and other instances of real nastiness. The coaches criticism of James Child was also disgraceful, to deflect blame on to the referee for their players refusal to listen to the ref or play to the rules is shameful. They should also be heavily sanctioned.

The worst of all though was Kenny Edwards. The situation was volatile on and off the field and he was intent on creating as much trouble as possible. I doubt they will, but he should be punished internally by Catalans. Remi Casty rightfully reprimanded him on the field. Not the first time Edwards has done this. In the cup semi final last year, after Catalans final try, he brought the ball back down the field and whilst lining up for the kick off, launched the ball with force into the Saints fans, striking a fan. Yet no action was taken. Hopefully, this time it will.

It's hard to apportion blame for the off field violence having only seen the TV pictures, but it doesn't seem that either club has covered itself in glory. No doubt it will be just swept under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen once the initial aftermath dies down. Maybe banning orders will be issued, but in this sport due to a lack of police presence at games and the fact that you can pay on the gate or get advanced match tickets without providing your details, no doubt those responsible will be back before long.

We need to take a look at ourselves as a sport. At the semi final last week, a couple of Halifax fans invaded the pitch at the end, one of them ran past two stewards to get on to the field, neither of whom made any effort to prevent it. Maybe this will lead to us taking fan behaviour more seriously?

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37 minutes ago, The Lad said:

A player is allowed to tell a ref his opinion, rugby league players are some of the most respectful when it comes to interaction with officials. I think the bad language that was heard was to do with the fact that a lot of Warrington players families where in the stands.

What about the bad language and general bad behaviour in every other game then?

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We have an issue with crowd behaviour in our game. It is easy to highlight a lot of examples right now.

Ignoring it is silly and is making things worse.

I agree with an earlier point that it is hard for us to claim to be a family sport as much.

Edited by Dave T
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31 minutes ago, meast said:

What about the bad language and general bad behaviour in every other game then?

It's a physical sport, people get hurt and tempers can rise because someone puts you on the ground and obviously you don't like it. As long as a player isn't swearing at a ref I don't see a problem and when I have seen that happen ref have dealt with it.

Edited by The Lad
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1 hour ago, The Lad said:

And any ref who wants to make a decision on a pitch should play a full season of professional rugby league.

This is absolute nonsense, I refereed up to international standard without ever playing above Pennine league level 


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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3 minutes ago, meast said:

What about the bad language and general bad behaviour in every other game then?

The attitude of players generally towards the officials has taken a nosedive over recent years. Some are still respectful, but they are a dwindling breed.

You are always going to get argy bargy between players - that's part of the game - but abuse of the referee is the thin end of the wedge. 

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50 minutes ago, meast said:

The problem with that is it only takes a few tanked up, out of control British fans to take umbrage and it kicks off, it happens at most grounds, but we don't see brawls like we saw yesterday, again, probably to do with lots of sun and alcohol completely taking over people and aggression kicking in.

I suppose it also depends on what kind of fan base you have over there, if you've basically got the 18-30 drinking and sniffing club then there's always recipe for trouble, it's in their nature generally.

Indeed, luckily they were ignored and there weren't any trouble. 

I suppose the point was there probably was some goading to the Wire fans - which doesn't help, especially when you

have spent a lot of money to see your team lose. 

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What about the role of the Captains? I haven't read anything about the role of the Club Captain's, above, apologies if I missed it some where but there's a lot to read through to get to here.

As I understand it: the two club Captain's, on the field, are the interface between the Referee and their own Players. The Captain's are duty bound to lead by example and to keep their own players in order, working in cooperation with the match officials.

(BTW - I'm not making any excuses and I'm not suggesting this was in any way a "defining" factor in what happened yesterday, just that improvement in this area could contribute to better matches and better outcomes in the future).

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I think we are a sport where you can pretty much always take your family. I have never had to think twice in all the years I have taken my children to games. I would think twice about trips to Warrington, Cas or Fev, based purely on previous personal experiences, but would not hesitate anywhere else. This was such an outlier or an incident we should be careful of extrapolating into infinity. Deal with it firmly and fairly and quickly and move on. 

I was really disappointed that both coaches were at pains to blame the ref. In the aftermath of yesterday’s game, the timing was self serving and pernicious. 

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what is amazing about this is it hasn't even made the bbc sports news just shows how much our profile has dipped.


We zap and maim With the bravery of being out of range We strafe the train With the bravery of being out of range

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I think Blake Austin remarked to the ref after being almost spear tackled:”I want to go home tonight Sir”—- he was looking to the referee to protect the players from foul play—- this applies to both sides obviously. Only the Captain can approach the ref to get clarification on decisions. Any other players haranguing or worse should be penalised immediately and binned if they persist. As an amateur, the Captain of most teams tended to be a calm and level headed type who could rein in the more volatile type—— everybody called the ref Sir and generally took the poor decisions on the chin——-speccies gave abuse and that’ll never change. Chris Hill should be nowhere near the Captain role because he lacks the ability to show respect and reason calmly and rationally. Referees need to enforce the rules and penalise dissent immediately. We never want to take the passion away from fans but I think clubs should consider paying for a Police presence inside grounds to deal with the morons —- every club has them to varying degrees—- stewards aren’t the answer to the drunken, foul mouthed idiots who think it’s ok to F and blind in front of kids. 

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53 minutes ago, Dave T said:

For the avoidance of doubt, I have nowt against Hull fans (even OF seemed a very nice man!), and have no desire to use any other club to defend any Wire fans.

“seemed a very nice man”. Not was a very nice man. Seemed a very nice man!

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1 hour ago, meast said:

I don't think cricket fans use the match officials as excuses to behave badly which seems to be epidemic in football and RL!

Bearing in mind English cricket fans at an Ashes Test Match played in England will be in the vast majority so little chance to fight the opposition fans. Some of the cricket fans at the first Test come across to me as very boorish. Booing Aussie players and waving sandpaper. There’s no class in this country any more. It’s just not cricket became part of the English language for a reason. That reason has all but disappeared.

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44 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

This was such an outlier or an incident we should be careful of extrapolating into infinity. Deal with it firmly and fairly and quickly and move on. 

I'm not so sure and I'm not convinced the SL/RFl statement about this being alien to RL is helpful as it can easily be proved wrong.

I wont go into listing incidents, but we have now utilised football rules for alcohol at the Grand Final because people cant behave and we saw an incident many times worse than this live on BBC for a game a handful of years back.

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7 hours ago, Oxford said:

Although I've seen far too many brawls so long as the game deals with it it'll blow over.

Don't be fooled into thinking it's limited to this match or those fans or the two clubs it's all our problem.

I'll make a bet before I've seen any press coverage that this'll be the most collumn inches we've had in quite some time and the RFL's actions will be lucky to see daylight by comparison.

as for

Hardly surprising that comments like this will come out at the moment and I'm talking about the quotes not Celt here.

Fining the clubs is the poorest stock response and points deduction might not be a bad idea. I know it's probably not in the rules but being knocked out of the play-offs would send a real message for a change.

 

Fining the clubs for their players actions is not a poor stock response, it's a reasonable response to what actually happened, clubs need to get their players in check, Hill for instance was massively disrespectful to J.Child and Child should have sent him off for not doing what he was told to do. Clearly Hill is incapable of not just being a captain but of actually playing by the rules of doing what the ref tells you to do (amongst many others yesterday), and in those circumstances by not getting the game over and done with he was exacerbating matters further.

Punishing clubs with hefty fines because their players brought the game into disrepute might actually sink in to owners/coaches that the way players behave as they did yesterday will not be tolerated. Outhouse stuff wasn't isolated it was virtually throughout the whole match, hands, knees, forearms on the head/neck in the tackle and whilst players were on the ground, high shots left right and centre,, just grubby carp pretty much all match long, it was ugly.

Child has his hands tied by Ganson and the RFL because of the way they want things controlled or to 'let the game flow' which as I've said before fails to grasp basic human psychology in how to control matters. By not enforcing the rules and by continually 'coaching' players thsi backfires massively, by not penalising they make the game more stop start and unwatchable than by actually upholding the laws of the game and sticking to them. This in turn makes the refs seem weak and puts huge pressure on them to control things. 

The sick thing is if you watch Ganson at his best, and at times he really was a superb ref, he can control things, penalise players and let the game flow without any of the rubbish that goes on now. I watched the 2005 CC final again recently and he has a very good game and isn't commanding players every second, just as refs before that did too.

Accusations Child lost control is in part correct but he cannot stop these thugs from what they are doing because firstly they are thugs and he physically cannot stop them and the structure of what he (Child) can do is limiting. In fact he was well within his rights to abandon the game.

I hope both clubs get hammered but doubt it.

Edited by Denton Rovers RLFC
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Of the game itself,  I though that  Sam Tomkins was getting some decent  form back. His goal kickung was excellent as was the rest of his play.

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Four legs good - two legs bad

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1 hour ago, my missus said:

what is amazing about this is it hasn't even made the bbc sports news just shows how much our profile has dipped.

It did make the news, yesterday and this morning.  It was on the TV news, it was on the BBC sports web pages and indeed briefly on the main BBC news web page.  It was trending on Twitter at one point last night.  

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12 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

It did make the news, yesterday and this morning.  It was on the TV news, it was on the BBC sports web pages and indeed briefly on the main BBC news web page.  It was trending on Twitter at one point last night.  

I assume the BBC can get footage when it’s bad news but rarely any other time.

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It sounds stupid but the people in the vip area could have really done some damage to the Warrington people as if they'd have just pushed them  downthey could have really hurt themselves,(it's quite high up and the stand is very steep) I don't find it as bad as what I've read from the video I've seen, it could have been a lot worse if the catalans fans in the stand had come over, it looks like 10 or so fans trying to get up to the vip areas and the business owners/bosses in the area trying to get get them down, I know who one of the people is in the vip who tried to calm it down, then punch one and then try to calm it down again. I'm sure that he won't get banned from the ground! 

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