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John Drake

5 Mar: SL: Leeds Rhinos v Toronto Wolfpack KO 7.45pm (TV)

Who will win?  

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  1. 1. Who will win?

    • Leeds Rhinos
      36
    • Toronto Wolfpack
      16

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  • Poll closed on 05/03/20 at 19:45

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6 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Then right on cue comes "fear the V"

Meaning?  I'd be delighted if TWP do well.  I don't think that they have put themselves in a particularly strong position to do so though, which is disappointing to me.

I also think that the TWP in SL premise is fundamentally flawed but hope to be proven indisputably wrong.

Edited by FearTheVee
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1 hour ago, TBone said:

Yes, £150k will only get 1 good player. However Toronto already had 2 marquee players so the signing also caused one of those salaries to go ‘on cap’ thus reducing the cap space available by whatever they are earning over £150k as well - if they were on £275k say, that would be a cap loss of 150+125 = 275k. His signing also meant that Toronto went over the overseas quota which triggered the Stanley fiasco and meant starting the season 1 good player down (a massive percentage of their good player pool) to gain a guy who hadn’t played the game for 5 years.

Noble is complicit in this but I doubt that he was the one pushing to sign SBW, it smacks of being ‘marketing’ driven from the top.

On a plus note, maybe SBW will turn good given he has some skin in TWP succeeding. However he can’t win games single handedly.

I'm not sure it works like that...............SBW will be a union convert signing, so won't be a marquee player status - that's my understanding?

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28 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

And yes Leeds were good , despite still getting away with numerous forward passes , and most importantly Briscoes knock on at the start , if that was spotted , we would have seen a different game 

Yes, we would have seen a different game but only because everything after that decision would have been different. So all Leeds tries would have been different tries.

But Leeds would still have won by 50 points because they were 50 points better than Toronto last night and they would have won by 50 points whether that knock on was given or not.

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7 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

There are some truly bizarre opinions on this situation.

’you can’t buy a team’ - well you can and it’s happened successfully numerous times in various sports. TW problem is they literally couldn’t buy a team due to the salary cap. Not to mention most of the team played last year.

’Could have bought 3 players instead of SBW’ - time and again this has to be explained. He costs £150k. You could get one good player for that or maybe a good one and an average one. Signing one of the best forwards ever to play the game to boost a weak pack is one of the smarter things they’ve done.

’players aren’t good enough’ true to an extent but that squad isn’t that bad and London showed what is actually possible if other things are in place. 

its pretty obvious what the problems are:

- Salary Cap and Noble’s terrible management of the finances signing decent players on stupid money just to get out of the championship. No surprise Noble is now blaming other factors when it’s almost entirely his fault.

- lack of squad, especially in the middle. I suspect they knew this but can’t do anything due to the problem above. They desperately need good middles and a good half. Idiots saying the SBW money could sign 3 players are saying they should have bought 3 £50k players. People like Springer and Mullalley are £50k standard players, they already have those. Trouble is they’re probably paying them double that - point 1 again. Lack of academy/reserves also contributes as discussed at length.

- Fixture list. For the last few seasons we’ve had the mouth breathers saying how they had an unfair advantage with blocks of fixtures away then at home. It’s not fair, wah, wah. Anyone sensible could see how having so many away fixtures to start would be a potential disaster. Fine when winning easily but sport is about confidence and momentum, they’ve now got zero of each thanks to a really tough start, no support behind them and increasingly bad results. By the time they play at home they will be so down it might not be possible to get them off the floor.

- Lastly, their coach is awful, arrogant and downright weird. The squad he had at Leeds masked a lot of inadequacies and now he’s getting brutally exposed. They aren’t going to turn this around with him in charge and his empty philosophical statements.

At this point I think they need to sack McDermott, try and get Lussick and Mcrone to retire to free up cap space and see if they can get some NRL players in. No doubt they’ll be better at home but this is a small competitive league so it’s going to be hard to pull back. I can’t see where they’ll get 10 wins from.

What a shame it is too. You can pump all the money and razzmatazz into rugby league but that amateurish business acumen and management will always be there. Another wasted opportunity for the sport on its way out of the door.

Hard to disagree with most of this. I certainly think the buck should stop with Vickers (surprise surprise) and Noble. The only thing i slightly disagree with is your criticism of McDermott. As a Leeds fan, I saw the good and bad times. In general, I do think McDermott is a good coach, but I agree that sometimes his arrogance prevents him from seeing the flaws. 

If they bring back the likes of Mellor, Lussick, Singleton, Cunningham, Stanley and manage to offload Wheeler, Worthington to bring a couple of SL quality players then I think they'll have enough to stay up. It's certainly a challenge for McDermott though, and it will be interesting to see how he fares. At the moment, I think he's right in downplaying the negativity surrounding them. He needs to keep positivity in the bubble of the group

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6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, we would have seen a different game but only because everything after that decision would have been different. So all Leeds tries would have been different tries.

But Leeds would still have won by 50 points because they were 50 points better than Toronto last night and they would have won by 50 points whether that knock on was given or not.

They might well have won by more , but , as you rightly put , things would have been different , Toronto might have scored first , then got a breakaway try and then Leeds might have folded , momentum and confidence are everything in sport , in fact I'd say that is what Toronto need , a couple of lucky breaks and the chance to have something to defend 

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Just now, GUBRATS said:

They might well have won by more , but , as you rightly put , things would have been different , Toronto might have scored first , then got a breakaway try and then Leeds might have folded , momentum and confidence are everything in sport , in fact I'd say that is what Toronto need , a couple of lucky breaks and the chance to have something to defend 

We will never know.

Despite your laughing emoji causing me to doubt myself, I will stick firm with my assumption that an 11 try to 2 win was not hinged on a single knock on decision.

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23 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I'm not sure it works like that...............SBW will be a union convert signing, so won't be a marquee player status - that's my understanding?

Returning players (those who previously played league) count 50% of their salary on the cap in the first year and 75% in the second - under that dispensation SBW would take up half their cap space this year. So they put him in the marquee spot and moved Lussick's full wage under the cap.

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1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

The easy solution to getting under the cap or creating cap space is to deregister players with the RFL. To do that, unless the player has breached the terms and conditions of his contract then they would need to retire the player or buy them out of their contract. To the players satisfaction. 

Then honouring the contract would still in all sense still be spending money on wages for that season, so surely it must still be added to the cap spend?

 

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25 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, we would have seen a different game but only because everything after that decision would have been different. So all Leeds tries would have been different tries.

But Leeds would still have won by 50 points because they were 50 points better than Toronto last night and they would have won by 50 points whether that knock on was given or not.

If the knock on had been given,the chihuahuas would have won by 50 in Starbugs world.

He didn't add the obligatory "the RFL love Leeds" line. 

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Thank you for your valuable contribution.

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10 hours ago, Bearman said:

Toronto lost. 

Was it the worst loss in Superleague ever?

Will it be the worst defeat of the season?

No.

I think leeds got beaten 66-10 almost 3 yrs ago to the day - can;t remember who beat them though......

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Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in.

I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try

Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen

DSC04156_edited-1_thumb.jpg

The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens.

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The problem with your assessment of getting rid of some of the players and getting some in of S.L. quality is not an option open to them DD .They are up to the cap and would leave them having to offload 4 or 5 Championship level players to bring in 2 S.L. quality players. That of course would leave them to having less squad players than they have now.At the end of the day whichever way you look at it the mess they are in is all their own doing. Apparently they knew the rules they were entering S.L. with so should have tried to adjust their squad and finances better.They chose not to hence the situation they are in now.

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Leeds played well, Toronto didn’t.

Robert Lui played well but looks out of shape big time.


Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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1 minute ago, Allora said:

Leeds played well, Toronto didn’t.

Robert Lui played well but looks out of shape big time.

On Robert Lui, that just seems to be his shape. He always seemed to defy it at Salford and looks to be continuing at Leeds. 

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22 minutes ago, Kenilworth Tiger said:

I think leeds got beaten 66-10 almost 3 yrs ago to the day - can;t remember who beat them though......

I remember who beat who in the final important game of the season, but you knew there was going to be a retort like that didn't you ? ?

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 Soon we will be dancing the fandango
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

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25 minutes ago, Kenilworth Tiger said:

I think leeds got beaten 66-10 almost 3 yrs ago to the day - can;t remember who beat them though......

Shame they couldn't build on it.

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Thank you for your valuable contribution.

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41 minutes ago, fairfolly said:

The problem with your assessment of getting rid of some of the players and getting some in of S.L. quality is not an option open to them DD .They are up to the cap and would leave them having to offload 4 or 5 Championship level players to bring in 2 S.L. quality players. That of course would leave them to having less squad players than they have now.At the end of the day whichever way you look at it the mess they are in is all their own doing. Apparently they knew the rules they were entering S.L. with so should have tried to adjust their squad and finances better.They chose not to hence the situation they are in now.

No, that's where you're wrong. They have some Championship level/lower SL level players on big wages so offloading them would allow them to bring in better quality players for similar money (in theory). I think it's too late a stage though, they may get 1 decent player in but i think it's a case of making the best of what they've got for this season. If they get those players back from injury, it should solidify them a bit. Feel a bit sorry for the much maligned Wilkin. He's clearly crocked but is playing in the middle, and getting exposed...........but he's putting his hand up to help the team out. Their middle is a real concern

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9 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

’Could have bought 3 players instead of SBW’ - time and again this has to be explained. He costs £150k. You could get one good player for that or maybe a good one and an average one. Signing one of the best forwards ever to play the game to boost a weak pack is one of the smarter things they’ve done.

Do you think it is "smart" when,  for example, for the money they are actually paying SBW they could have had Jason Taumalolo, Cameron Smith (the Melbourne one), James Tedesco , Roger Tuivasa-Sheck and Joseph Manu all together?

He doesn't "cost"  £150k, he has a cap value of £150K, as does Ricky Leutele (£400k real cost). He "costs" £2.6 million! The SBW signing also meant that Darcy Lussick , a man who has not yet started a game, is now (really) costing TW over £200,000 on the cap.

Is that smart?

Do you think paying a 35 year old man who last played RL six years ago, has a history of injury problems  and has played a sport requiring different approaches and fitness for the last 6 years FIVE TIMES as much any Rugby League player in history has ever been paid, paying him more than other clubs entire 30 man squads, is smart?

I think it is infinitely stupid and naive but each to their own.

Do you reckon David Argyle is nodding along whilst men earning 2% of that SBW salary are scoring tries for fun against his team and saying "Wow what great value I am getting here!!!!,  we are so smart here at the bottom of the table win-less..."?

Mr Argyle is paying around £5 million in salaries and getting a value of around 20% of that, is that smart?

 

 

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Just now, Robin Evans said:

Perhaps not. But as it's his cash to spend how he wishes......

I think you are been a tad generous Robin, I think Mr Argyle has had his teat firmly milked and it is slowly dawning on him...

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8 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

I think you are been a tad generous Robin, I think Mr Argyle has had his teat firmly milked and it is slowly dawning on him...

I think it was probably Argyle who pushed for the SBW signing. As Noble said last night, they're interested in how many 'eyeballs' they can get. SBW was an investment more for off field than on field

Edited by DoubleD

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11 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I think it was probably Argyle who pushed for the SBW signing. As Noble said last night, they're interested in how many 'eyeballs' they can get. SBW was an investment more for off field than on field

They are better off without Noble. 

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2008 RFL Wakefield & District Young Volunteer of the Year

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39 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

No, that's where you're wrong. They have some Championship level/lower SL level players on big wages so offloading them would allow them to bring in better quality players for similar money (in theory). I think it's too late a stage though, they may get 1 decent player in but i think it's a case of making the best of what they've got for this season. If they get those players back from injury, it should solidify them a bit. Feel a bit sorry for the much maligned Wilkin. He's clearly crocked but is playing in the middle, and getting exposed...........but he's putting his hand up to help the team out. Their middle is a real concern

Problem is those championship quality players know they are never going to get a payday like this one again though so they aren't walking away from their contracts for nothing. They would require a payoff to make up the shortfall in any contract offered by another club and that settlement money would count on Toronto's cap, so the reality is it would likely only free up enough cap space to sign an equally average championship-level player or at best a couple of lower-end short term loans. And in any case it sounds like they need to release a couple of those players just to be able to play one of their current players in Chase Stanley in the first instance. So yes they are likely stuck with what they have got which will probably see them go straight back down. It's a fair old mess.

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25 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I think it was probably Argyle who pushed for the SBW signing. As Noble said last night, they're interested in how many 'eyeballs' they can get. SBW was an investment more for off field than on field

Quite a large losing bet then...

Do you think SBW will stick around if they are playing Championship RL next year?  Would be quite a story to have someone earning £2.6 million playing weekly against lads on less than 1% of that.

And no doubt "smart"...

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1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

No, that's where you're wrong. They have some Championship level/lower SL level players on big wages so offloading them would allow them to bring in better quality players for similar money (in theory). I think it's too late a stage though, they may get 1 decent player in but i think it's a case of making the best of what they've got for this season. If they get those players back from injury, it should solidify them a bit. Feel a bit sorry for the much maligned Wilkin. He's clearly crocked but is playing in the middle, and getting exposed...........but he's putting his hand up to help the team out. Their middle is a real concern

I don't think it works like that because:

a) they have to apply for a dispensation to remove those players salary from the cap - a player has a cap value and that doesn't reduce  no matter how many games they do/not play

b) in line with the above, a player who moves to another club has their cap value removed from their original club and set as their maximum of the cap value in the season at their new club. This is so that a player can't take (or, more likely, be forced into) a pay cut to reduce their cap value (making any over-paid player a liability for any club that they might move to)

(Luckily for TWP Gigot hadn't been registered with a club this season so didn't already have a cap value)

Edited by TBone

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DD, I am not knocking the players,they have been offered big money and,same as the vast majority of workers,if somebody offers you a lot more money than the going rates you are going to take it. As for Wilkin I agree with you,he has been a superb player but in my own opinion he should have retired at the end of last season. But,once again if they have offered him silly money to stay on another year I do not blame him one bit for taking it. As for trading in players, why are they going to forsake the money they are on to go to another club on probably 50% of what they are earning now. ? They are not are they. As I have posted several times the position they are in lies clearly with the backroom staff, whoever they may be along with Noble,for not thinking straight before the season started.It is the old ,old adage though,it is easy to spend somebody else,s money.I would be willing to take a bet if Nobby had to pay for the signings 8 or 9 of them would not be there.

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