2025 RLWC to be held in France

[Southerner80]

I think this is a great thing for Rugby League. A 16 team World Cup in France, IMO focused on the South where the game is strong, and with the possibility of maybe a game in Barcelona and 2 in Paris at appropriately sized stadiums ie max 30k.

For the Final, I would think a moderately sized ground in the South, say State Toulousian at a sell out would be a great option rather than 20k in a huge stadium elsewhere. Thoughts on this? Is this too pessimistic of Me? Would Marsielle be able to sell significant tickets?

Lastly, I feel it would not hurt if France could add a little bit of Anglo and Antipodean to the team, with say 3 residence picks who have played for 3 years in France in the 17 to give them that bit more competitiveness? Frances Union team often have residence picks so I don't feel it would be a bad thing here.

[Eddie]

12 minutes ago, Southerner80 said:

I think this is a great thing for Rugby League. A 16 team World Cup in France, IMO focused on the South where the game is strong, and with the possibility of maybe a game in Barcelona and 2 in Paris at appropriately sized stadiums ie max 30k.

For the Final, I would think a moderately sized ground in the South, say State Toulousian at a sell out would be a great option rather than 20k in a huge stadium elsewhere. Thoughts on this? Is this too pessimistic of Me? Would Marsielle be able to sell significant tickets?

Lastly, I feel it would not hurt if France could add a little bit of Anglo and Antipodean to the team, with say 3 residence picks who have played for 3 years in France in the 17 to give them that bit more competitiveness? Frances Union team often have residence picks so I don't feel it would be a bad thing here.

I wouldn’t bother with Paris at all, France is a much bigger country than England and our WC will only have one game in the South, and that in a city with two teams in the top three divisions. And I’m sure the final would get a crowd much bigger than 20,000, there’d probably be 10,000 English people there for a start. Even the Lord Derby Cup final can get close to 10,000 fans. 

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I wouldn’t bother with Paris at all, France is a much bigger country than England and our WC will only have one game in the South, and that in a city with two teams in the top three divisions. And I’m sure the final would get a crowd much bigger than 20,000, there’d probably be 10,000 English people there for a start. Even the Lord Derby Cup final can get close to 10,000 fans. 

But thats because of the Government funding as much as anything. I don't think its a conscious strategy to just have one game in the South.

Similarly any funding from Government, at either a national or local level, would dictate where games are played in France.

[Eddie]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

But thats because of the Government funding as much as anything. I don't think its a conscious strategy to just have one game in the South.

Similarly any funding from Government, at either a national or local level, would dictate where games are played in France.

Good point! I think my point that a French RLWC wouldn’t need Paris is valid though. If they needed really big stadiums then Bordeaux and Marseille are a lot closer to the action, plus there is RL activity around Montpellier, Nantes, Toulon and Lyon. 

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Good point! I think my point that a French RLWC wouldn’t need Paris is valid though. If they needed really big stadiums then Bordeaux and Marseille are a lot closer to the action, plus there is RL activity around Montpellier, Nantes, Toulon and Lyon. 

Oh I think your point is very valid. However if the French bid got a large amount of funding to play a couple of games in Paris it would be daft not to take it. All hypothetical but funding along the lines of this years World Cup would subsidise the entire tournament. 

[Mr Frisky]

Now a thread open on this on the BBC RL website - stand back and wait for the circling trolls who inhabit the BBC forum to go into full RL attack mode......

[The Frying Scotsman]

9 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

Now a thread open on this on the BBC RL website - stand back and wait for the circling trolls who inhabit the BBC forum to go into full RL attack mode......

There is a BBC Rugby League forum??

Every day is a school day.

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Feels like it might be one World Cup too soon. 2029 would allow us to get Toulouse locked in Super League, build up Elite 1 events and have had France vs England tests as part of the annual RL calendar. Not against France having a World Cup, just want them to at least make the QF and wherever the games are held, to all be sold out. 

No , owd gits like me and Robin might not last till then , let's have it in 2025 

[The Rocket]

5 hours ago, DoubleD said:

What's interesting to me is the complete change in tact by the Chairman. Previously, everything had been more formal, administerial and process driven but it appears Grant does not feel like that is delivering results and so he's looking to be more hands-on and bring parties together. I like this approach, it's similar to how I engage in business..........it can ruffle a few feathers initially as it often goes against the grain but it can deliver good results, if approached correctly. He has the contacts at a high level so that should stand him in good stead. He didn't mince his words either in that BBC article:

"The actual decision was supposed to be October 2020 but the pandemic interrupted that.

"But our management effectively did nothing to look at that potential and the timeline drifted. So I took it upon myself to progress that.

That's fairly damning words to use............it appears he will be more of a V'Landys in approach. Time will tell how successful he is, but I'm not impressed if they get rid of the mid season international window, that was hard fought. We'd need a longer end of season window to compensate if that happens

He was the Minister for Gaming, Hospitality and Racing in the NSW Government a few years back and is on some board or other to do with racing presently I believe, so don`t worry him and V`landy`s will be tight, this probably explains the axing of mid-year Tests, but don`t worry V`landy`s is no fool, he will know full well the value of a thriving International game. Especially considering it is the one thing we have over our main competitor down here, i.e. fumbleball and the one thing we have lacking against our other, union.

[Mr Frisky]

16 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

There is a BBC Rugby League forum??

Every day is a school day.

Not really its the HYS they put up for most sports now and again.

[Manfred Mann]

13 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Are you saying the people of, say, Avignon wouldn't turn out for the World Cup because Avignon isn't in Super League?  

 No, I am not saying that. But Avignon only has the stadium capacity for 17,500 fans, which will make little money for the tournament. 

France needs a strong club fan base in several major cities, a fan base which can attract many thousands of additional first timer spectators to the stadiums for a World Cup match, and thereby make the tournament a financial success.

2025 is much too early for a World Cup in France. 2029 would be the earliest plausible date, assuming that some of the club expansion developments that I have mentioned actually take place.

[gingerjon]

13 hours ago, Dave T said:

I don't disagree, but one of our most confident tournaments was the 2000 World Cup! 

Which will be a quarter of a century in the past by 2025.

But, if it is relevant, about the only positive that came from that tournament were the crowds that turned out in France which, whilst not amazing amazing, were streets ahead of what was happening elsewhere.

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

 No, I am not saying that. But Avignon only has the stadium capacity for 17,500 fans, which will make little money for the tournament. 

France needs a strong club fan base in several major cities, a fan base which can attract many thousands of additional first timer spectators to the stadiums for a World Cup match, and thereby make the tournament a financial success.

2025 is much too early for a World Cup in France. 2029 would be the earliest plausible date, assuming that some of the club expansion developments that I have mentioned actually take place.

17,500 is bigger than some grounds being used at the England WC. 

[Eddie]

Average WC attendances since 1977 are all between 13-17k, other than 2000 when it was just 8.5k. That year there were some absolutely woeful crowds, I can barely believe how few people went to for example England v Fiji (10k), Aus v Samoa QF 5k, England v NZ SF 16k, even the final only got 44k.

I didn’t have much more than a passing interest in the game at that time, it went off my radar for a while when I moved South, can anyone remember why interest in that tournament was so low?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Rugby_League_World_Cup

 

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Average WC attendances since 1977 are all between 13-17k, other than 2000 when it was just 8.5k. That year there were some absolutely woeful crowds, I can barely believe how few people went to for example England v Fiji (10k), Aus v Samoa QF 5k, England v NZ SF 16k, even the final only got 44k.

I didn’t have much more than a passing interest in the game at that time, it went off my radar for a while when I moved South, can anyone remember why interest in that tournament was so low?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Rugby_League_World_Cup

 

It's not relevant to a debate about 2025 aside from the lessons learnt. Games were spread too thinly, there wasn't any of the momentum that we've had for 2013 and 2021. Some very questionable marketing and sponsorship decisions. (I can't remember pricing now so not sure if that was an issue). All then compounded by historically bad weather which made transport virtually impossible and, perhaps more crucially, made attending the games a chore and the games themselves not always great.

I did enjoy the games I saw but I do also remember the embarrassment of coming out of the Millennium Stadium and going across to Cardiff Central which was set up for a huge Six Nations-esque crowd and instead there was basically just me going round all the crush barriers.

[Henson Park Old Firm]

My idea...

Opening game in Paris, at Parc des Princess(Double header France V ... and England V ...)

average 15,000-25,000 stadiums would be perfect for the pool games...  

Quarter finals in , Toulon, Montpellier Bordeaux and Tolouse 

Semi final double hearder in Lyon

Final in Marseille and play all free finals on the day so everyone can witness the Wheelchair, Female and Mens finals... make it a carnival of rugby league

[Mr Plow]

Could a successful WC raise the profile of the game in France? Even if it is largely played in the south. A strong Elite 1 competition would be fantastic

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Which will be a quarter of a century in the past by 2025.

But, if it is relevant, about the only positive that came from that tournament were the crowds that turned out in France which, whilst not amazing amazing, were streets ahead of what was happening elsewhere.

Absolutely, and you'll see I support this move, but what we did learn from 20 years ago is that Field of Dreams kind of planning doesn't work. 

Even in 2013 we had some dire crowds where we were overly ambitious, and GBs tour in 2019 was another where crowds underwhelmed. People thought a game versus Tonga would draw in 30k and it was nowhere near. 

Even the last series against the Kiwis got 17k in Hull. 

There is a reason that RU's Autumn internationals don't just see the lower ranked nations come over, the likes of Aus, NZ and SA subsidise these other games. It's a sensible approach that we should adopt. 

Getting 40k versus the Aussie should allow us to take risks with bringing Samoa over etc. we've just never gone that far with it. 

[RP London]

34 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's not relevant to a debate about 2025 aside from the lessons learnt. Games were spread too thinly, there wasn't any of the momentum that we've had for 2013 and 2021. Some very questionable marketing and sponsorship decisions. (I can't remember pricing now so not sure if that was an issue). All then compounded by historically bad weather which made transport virtually impossible and, perhaps more crucially, made attending the games a chore and the games themselves not always great.

I did enjoy the games I saw but I do also remember the embarrassment of coming out of the Millennium Stadium and going across to Cardiff Central which was set up for a huge Six Nations-esque crowd and instead there was basically just me going round all the crush barriers.

weather was atrocious.. remember going to england v aus in the opening game... got soaked! you're right though about momentum and i think that was the big learning lesson from it and they seemed to have got it much better since. If they can repeat a bit of 2013 in France then absolutley this will help the game there. A good French team is needed but we arent looking at them winning the thing but a semi final would do wonders for them. 

[Damien]

50 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's not relevant to a debate about 2025 aside from the lessons learnt. Games were spread too thinly, there wasn't any of the momentum that we've had for 2013 and 2021. Some very questionable marketing and sponsorship decisions. (I can't remember pricing now so not sure if that was an issue). All then compounded by historically bad weather which made transport virtually impossible and, perhaps more crucially, made attending the games a chore and the games themselves not always great.

I did enjoy the games I saw but I do also remember the embarrassment of coming out of the Millennium Stadium and going across to Cardiff Central which was set up for a huge Six Nations-esque crowd and instead there was basically just me going round all the crush barriers.

I agree 2000 was a disaster for all sorts of reasons.

For me it highlighted the need for a great, big bang start. Get that right and it tends to build a momentum. Dont and it puts off any potential neutrals for the rest of the tournament.

I'll never forget the sight of that opening match at Windsor Park in front of about 3k in absolutely atrocious weather. It was a terrible game, knock ons and stoppages aplenty, and set the tone. A solitary poster in Belfast City centre and the Soldiers Song ringing out across Windsor Park summed up all the preparation and planning. Literally no one had even considered the sensitivities around that and it shows the amount of local input, in 2000 it could have genuinely caused a riot. There may have been some big plans in 2000 but much of it was done very badly and was small time despite some of the venues.

[Hela Wigmen]

12 hours ago, Eddie said:

There or Bordeaux would seem most likely, and sensible. I can’t think of any other stadiums in the south of France that would be big enough. 

There’s quite a jump between Bordeaux Football (42k) and Marseille Football (67k), though Marseille is more aesthetically pleasing. Bordeaux is a great city, I went in 2016 and really enjoyed it. 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

10 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

Now a thread open on this on the BBC RL website - stand back and wait for the circling trolls who inhabit the BBC forum to go into full RL attack mode......

I haven't been on those comments sections in years ever since, by post 3, the trolls had taken over, they were fun to read for a laugh though. 

[Harry Stottle]

22 hours ago, Spidey said:

What are the Leythers going to do though?

As in the book - One Winter: Romance, Rock 'n' Roll and Rugby League in the Swinging Sixties, by Geoff Lee.

He says you can get anywhere in the world from Leigh bus station, which you can so no problem Spidey!

[Tommygilf]

54 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Absolutely, and you'll see I support this move, but what we did learn from 20 years ago is that Field of Dreams kind of planning doesn't work. 

Even in 2013 we had some dire crowds where we were overly ambitious, and GBs tour in 2019 was another where crowds underwhelmed. People thought a game versus Tonga would draw in 30k and it was nowhere near. 

Even the last series against the Kiwis got 17k in Hull. 

There is a reason that RU's Autumn internationals don't just see the lower ranked nations come over, the likes of Aus, NZ and SA subsidise these other games. It's a sensible approach that we should adopt. 

Getting 40k versus the Aussie should allow us to take risks with bringing Samoa over etc. we've just never gone that far with it. 

I think its about strategic planning, knowing the market and actually not overwhelming certain areas, whilst accepting that crowd/success levels are relative.

The Kiwis in the last series got 17k in Hull, way down on what they got there a few years prior, I'm almost certain because it wasn't the only game in Yorkshire for that series. The 3rd game at Leeds despite being a dead rubber, virtually sold out with an extra 15 thousand people and I've no doubt that plenty of people who would have made the extra effort to get to Hull saw Leeds as the far more convenient option. That put a lot of pressure on the people of Hull and its sparsely populated environs. If anything, that series demonstrated that the 1 Yorkshire, 1 London, 1 Lancashire, formula for 3 match test series' should be an automatic pick.

I actually feel that the Kiwis are a potentially bigger draw than the Australians for us, if not that then at least as big. I think that's especially true amongst the "peripheral RL" audience for whom NZ = Good rugby team (because of the success and profile of the All Blacks) far more than the Green and Gold sadly. That was my main takeaway from the test at the Olympic stadium for the kiwi series in 2015 vs the game against Australia in the 2016 4 Nations. 

One of my main concerns for the 2021 tournament is the "3rd game" in the likes of Doncaster, Warrington, Leigh etc. who all have a premium fixture within 20 minutes drive. I do also think these are the sort of fixtures that are a bit of a shame to have not gone more off piste to the likes of Bristol, Gloucester, and the obvious gap of fixtures in London.

[pahars]

The only way it’s going to be a success is if the regional governments in Toulouse and Montpellier buy in so I can see group games in their 20k and 15k RU stadiums and opener/final in their 35k ish football stadiums.

Also if England are going to be playing games outside the traditional French RL heartlands you hope they would make sure it’s not the only game the travelling fans can see. So for an off the top of my head example if they are playing in Nice have games in Cannes and Monaco the day either side.