Transgender players banned from international RL

[Copa]

Many of our cultures, languages etc are not currently capable of naturally absorbing these people into the mainstream.

I’ve been to a part of Indonesia where three genders was the norm. I do wonder if the “westernisation of homosexuality” will eventually mean the third gender people there will identify as transgender and their local traditions and culture will change forever … but that’s a different issue.

I think we should all start from the premise that rugby league is for everyone and go from there. Any changes, rulings etc should also be done in a way that displays both compassion and inclusiveness.

As to what the rules should settle on, I don’t know as I’m not smart enough to think of a solution. I do suspect, however, that a position will slowly evolve over the next decade or so as the community becomes more understanding and accepting.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Copa

[Desert Skipper]

1 hour ago, north yorks trinity said:

As an interesting (in my opinion!) aside, I can't think of an argument for preventing biologically born females (transitioned or otherwise) from competing in male categories

Well then, you didn’t watch the men’s ‘putting the toilet seat down’ championships this year. Totally unfair result when a biologically born female stormed to first place without even forgetting once.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Desert Skipper

[Copa]

5 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I dont because that already dictates inclusion of all above the safety of the majority of female players. First principles matter. 

Buzzwords like compassion and inclusiveness ignore the reality that choices have to be made.  I start from player safety and therefore allowing the inclusion of transgender athletes is incompatible with a sport that needs to protect the welfare of players as much as possible. 

Compassion and inclusiveness doesn’t necessarily mean transgender players play in women’s teams. It simply means that transgender people should be included in an open, respectful  and transparent process when determining who can play in what team.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Copa

[Oxford]

A one size fits all reaction from a sport too scaredycat to take a lead.

 

[Oxford]

37 minutes ago, Oxford said:

A one size fits all reaction from a sport too scaredycat to take a lead.

Just to say, with the RLWC coming up taking out a section of possible customers is always good business.

[Chrispmartha]

As the amount of Transgender RL players is so small, especially international ones (are there any at all?), could there be an argument for it being determined on a case by case basis rather than a complete ban?

[Tommygilf]

 

Remember folks, Rugby League is well known as a different sport to t'other code...

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

As the amount of Transgender RL players is so small, especially international ones (are there any at all?), could there be an argument for it being determined on a case by case basis rather than a complete ban?

I think that is a really bad approach that just opens up a completely different can of worms. I'm not sure how you can justify one person being allowed but not another without causing great offence.

[Dunbar]

17 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Which has already been carried out by the other code. There is nothing else we are going to learn from any investigation or process about the human anatomy we didn´t already know. 

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender#SummaryforTransgenderWomen

I think the point is... now that we have determined (correctly in my view) that fairness and safety considerations dictate that trans women should not compete in women's teams, the next step is how do we include trans people to ensure they can be part of the Rugby League community and play the sport in some way.

The latter is difficult as we are not a mainstream sport and the numbers of trans people wanting to play are probably quite small - but it doesn't stop us saying people are welcome and it doesn't stop us looking at what the possibilities are.

[Dunbar]

21 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Coach and Ref, get stuck in. RL was being ínclusive´for decades before others because we didn´t fetishise or demonise the difference. Here its player welfare so a touch different but anyone who wants to get involved without endangered the health of female athletes is free to do so. 

The conversation of how inclusive Rugby League is is one that we can have another time.

But this is the first time in my memory that we have explicitly stated that individuals cannot play the sport (in the manner in which they would like). 

It feels to me that this is absolutely the right time to afirm our inclusivity to this group.

[OriginalMrC]

This is a really difficult topic to debate sensibly and one which I stay away from on social media. All I will say is some sports are separated by gender for a reason. 

I play tag RL in mixed teams and really enjoy it. However where there are collisions, and it happens sometimes, then it is inevitable that the female player comes off worse. That's even when both players are the same size/weight. Until there is strong evidence that transgender players born male dont retain inherent advantages in full contact sports then I can't see how inclusivity can trump safety. 

 

[gingerjon]

49 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I think the point is... now that we have determined (correctly in my view) that fairness and safety considerations dictate that trans women should not compete in women's teams, the next step is how do we include trans people to ensure they can be part of the Rugby League community and play the sport in some way.

The latter is difficult as we are not a mainstream sport and the numbers of trans people wanting to play are probably quite small - but it doesn't stop us saying people are welcome and it doesn't stop us looking at what the possibilities are.

I should say that I don't know what their specific rules are about participation in whatever level games but I did see last season that baseball/softball UK had very targeted programmes around engaging with trans/non-binary/others so that they could both participate in club activities and be actively and positively welcomed and encouraged to do so.

I noted it at the time because it didn't seem forced and came at it from the angle of showing what could be done rather than a starting point of grudging toleration or a list of what you can't do.

[Dave T]

32 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The conversation of how inclusive Rugby League is is one that we can have another time.

But this is the first time in my memory that we have explicitly stated that individuals cannot play the sport (in the manner in which they would like). 

It feels to me that this is absolutely the right time to afirm our inclusivity to this group.

On your 2nd line, this was the part I was most disappointed by.

This release is all about exclusion - why was it not mentioned where transwomen can play? If we are all about inclusivity, which I believe RL is all about, then we shouldn't just say where people can't play.

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

On your 2nd line, this was the part I was most disappointed by.

This release is all about exclusion - why was it not mentioned where transwomen can play? If we are all about inclusivity, which I believe RL is all about, then we shouldn't just say where people can't play.

Totally agree.. This is where the numbers involved is an important thing IMHO. Is there even 1 transgender woman who may be picked to play in the womens world cup? If not then I just question why we need to do this right now, could we not put together a plan so that when it is announced its not about banning its about how inclusivity is being reached?

[fighting irish]

Shock Horror!!!!!

I like the RaRa document.

I didn't read every detail but found myself agreeing with everything I did read.

What it didn't make reference to (unless I missed it) is the effect of long-term depletion of testosterone to natural feminine levels in trans-gender women.

It did say that (male) physical advantages were retained even when testosterone was reduced to natural female levels.

I found myself wondering if that retention extends indefinitely over time or would decay with long term reduced testosterone levels.

If I remember correctly swimming allowed transgender women to compete after being on hormone therapy for a relatively short period of time. The furore over Lia Thomas has resulted in the subsequent decision to repeal that rule and indeed ban them completely. 

Perhaps a way of keeping the door open to trans-women to play in female competition is, through further research into the long-term effects of reduced testosterone levels.

If the effects of long-term feminising hormone treatment results in further and on-going reductions in the innate male advantages, over time, then perhaps criteria could be formulated to enable them to compete, without fear of putting others at risk.

[RL Tragic]

Should this not be on the Women and girls forum , or based on the recent ruling should it not .

[The storm]

Its a very obvious and correct decision based on potential risk

[Wholly Trinity]

4 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

As the amount of Transgender RL players is so small, especially international ones (are there any at all?), could there be an argument for it being determined on a case by case basis rather than a complete ban?

At elite level, lots of data is available on players' strength, fitness and stamina.

Rather than a blanket ban wouldn't it be possible to assess players on an individual basis by comparison with the average metrics measured across the sport at that level.?

Men are taller than women but not all men are taller than all women.

[GUBRATS]

8 hours ago, The Rocket said:

There`s nothing  " knee-jerk " about it really, it seems that the latest research shows that any one born male, and no matter what stage of life decides to call themselves female ( pre- or post-puberty ) is going to have certain physical advantages over those who were born and remain female.

It`s just that everyone is too cowed to come out and say it.

Correct 

[Tommygilf]

23 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

At elite level, lots of data is available on players' strength, fitness and stamina.

Rather than a blanket ban wouldn't it be possible to assess players on an individual basis by comparison with the average metrics measured across the sport at that level.?

Men are taller than women but not all men are taller than all women.

Then you get into ridiculous territory of a Trans woman can play Womens RL but only if she is under 5ft 8 and weighs less than 70 kilos...

Sorry if that appears facetious, but I think "case by case" is a can of worms.

[RL Tragic]

21 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

At elite level, lots of data is available on players' strength, fitness and stamina.

Rather than a blanket ban wouldn't it be possible to assess players on an individual basis by comparison with the average metrics measured across the sport at that level.?

Men are taller than women but not all men are taller than all women.

Or men could just play mens sports and women play womens sport , it’s a great system and worked for years why it’s a requirement that every micro minority gets appeased to the detriment of the vast majority is beyond me . Trust me 99% of RL fans certainly all the ones I know ( many ) roll there eyes and wish we could go back to just enjoying the game and looking forward to titanic match ups and watching genuine stars . Not being bombarded by gender and race politics on a daily basis ( see NRL website) the game is literally dying on its ###### . Participation is minuscule compared to when I played in the mid 90s crowds whichever way you look at it are down and falling .The quality of player in the British game is markedly worse and the boundaries of the game have realistically shrunk. Let’s fix them issues please . 

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, RL Tragic said:

Or men could just play mens sports and women play womens sport , it’s a great system and worked for years why it’s a requirement that every micro minority gets appeased to the detriment of the vast majority is beyond me . Trust me 99% of RL fans certainly all the ones I know ( many ) roll there eyes and wish we could go back to just enjoying the game and looking forward to titanic match ups and watching genuine stars . Not being bombarded by gender and race politics on a daily basis ( see NRL website) the game is literally dying on its ###### . Participation is minuscule compared to when I played in the mid 90s crowds whichever way you look at it are down and falling .The quality of player in the British game is markedly worse and the boundaries of the game have realistically shrunk. Let’s fix them issues please . 

I don't understand why you are writing a post complaining when the very thing you want (your first sentence) has actually happened.

[fighting irish]

34 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

At elite level, lots of data is available on players' strength, fitness and stamina.

Rather than a blanket ban wouldn't it be possible to assess players on an individual basis by comparison with the average metrics measured across the sport at that level.?

Men are taller than women but not all men are taller than all women.

My thoughts exactly. If the transgender woman falls within a few standard deviations of the mean, rather than remaining an outlier, then what's the problem? 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, fighting irish said:

My thoughts exactly. If the transgender woman falls within a few standard deviations of the mean, rather than remaining an outlier, then what's the problem? 

And what about those that don't? Just screw them?

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, RL Tragic said:

Or men could just play mens sports and women play womens sport , it’s a great system and worked for years why it’s a requirement that every micro minority gets appeased to the detriment of the vast majority is beyond me . Trust me 99% of RL fans certainly all the ones I know ( many ) roll there eyes and wish we could go back to just enjoying the game and looking forward to titanic match ups and watching genuine stars . Not being bombarded by gender and race politics on a daily basis ( see NRL website) the game is literally dying on its ###### . Participation is minuscule compared to when I played in the mid 90s crowds whichever way you look at it are down and falling .The quality of player in the British game is markedly worse and the boundaries of the game have realistically shrunk. Let’s fix them issues please . 

This just seems like a load of totally unconnected moans.