IMG Grading Unveiled

[Chrispmartha]

1 hour ago, Derwent Parker said:

It worked great before the Sky money and the Unfair distribution of CF

It doesn't work now - because of the Unfair distribution of CF

and it wont work under the IMG plans - because of the Unfair distribution of CF

because whatever IMG tells them to do - they dont have the money to do it [apart from the SL teams] and guess why?

Correct - because of the Unfair distribution of CF

All IMGs plans will do -  is protect the SL teams and we all know that

Id like to know your definition of worked great?

The sport was nearly bankrupt and the elite league was semi professional played in crumbling stadiums.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Chrispmartha

[OnStrike]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

Any chance you could edit that to get rid of the massive space underneath the text there seems to be nothing there?

God knows what happened, my phone doesn't seem to like this site at all, wouldn't let me quote reply either. Tried editing it on my laptop, no joy!

[RP London]

5 minutes ago, OnStrike said:

God knows what happened, my phone doesn't seem to like this site at all, wouldn't let me quote reply either. Tried editing it on my laptop, no joy!

that one seemed to work fine so god only knows what happened! Welcome by the way!!

[OnStrike]

21 minutes ago, RP London said:

that one seemed to work fine so god only knows what happened! Welcome by the way!!

That one was on my laptop! Must get my 10 year old to show me how to work it on the phone! Cheers

[Sammo]

I checked out of this topic at about page 35 - has anything significant happened or are we still having the same circular arguments?

[DI Keith Fowler]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

I know. You can use his in-depth and wholly accurate assessment of Keighley's photo op for example:

 

 

Thick as mince isn't he?

[Derwent Parker]

38 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Id like to know your definition of worked great?

The sport was nearly bankrupt and the elite league was semi professional played in crumbling stadiums.

My answer was to a statement from RP London who said about normal P&R "that doesn't work.. and has been shown not to work for the past how ever many years we want to pick"

And I said "it worked great before Sky money" - P & R worked great - i never mentioned anyone being bankrupt or crumbling stadiums.

It was 4 up 4 down then - it was not boring as now because 8 teams played in different leagues every year. and nobody went bankrupt due to relegation and you didn't need to break the bank to get promoted - you just needed to be good.

[RP London]

9 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

My answer was to a statement from RP London who said about normal P&R "that doesn't work.. and has been shown not to work for the past how ever many years we want to pick"

And I said "it worked great before Sky money" - P & R worked great - i never mentioned anyone being bankrupt or crumbling stadiums.

It was 4 up 4 down then - it was not boring as now because 8 teams played in different leagues every year. and nobody went bankrupt due to relegation and you didn't need to break the bank to get promoted - you just needed to be good.

but the point being made by myself and now others is that what you said was not true. It didnt work perfectly well because the sport was in a very perilous state. It also wasnt a full professional sport as it is now.. P&R (without standards) may seem to work but its very surface level, there are a lot of teams moving up and down = good.. but when you are trying to run a business (which it is now) this can be extremely dangerous, lead to investment in the wrong things and in the end bankrputcy which is where the game was going in the early 1990s thanks to an amateur ideal being played in an ever more professionalising game. You can even see this down the leagues in RU (let along at champ to prem level).. 

the game is very different, the sport is very different and the world is very different.. the idea that what worked in the early 70s and 80s would work now is just nonsensical, they could see that in the early 90s.. if we had just carried on as it was the game was gone.

This is professional sport.. and in professional sport balance sheets and quality of grounds (to get people in) are really important.. if you want the "glory days of the 70s and 80s" with no bankruptcy etc then sorry but they are long gone and they are not coming back. full time wages need to be paid, full time staff need to be paid, ground compliance is more stringent etc etc.. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by RP London

[Gav Wilson]

8 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

...And I said "it worked great before Sky money" - P & R worked great - i never mentioned anyone being bankrupt or crumbling stadiums.

It was 4 up 4 down then - it was not boring as now because 8 teams played in different leagues every year. and nobody went bankrupt due to relegation and you didn't need to break the bank to get promoted - you just needed to be good.

Thi is errant nonsense.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

So it'll be the same as promotion and relegation between every single tier in the football pyramid then?

Why do posters have this compulsion to quote what other sports have (not just you), I couldn't give a flying one what other sports and countries do, like a single Division in the NRL, or a player draft system in the States, or an international panel of players in Cricket, even an European League in Basketball.

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why do posters have this compulsion to quote what other sports have (not just you), I couldn't give a flying one what other sports and countries do, like a single Division in the NRL, or a player draft system in the States, or an international panel of players in Cricket, even an European League in Basketball.

Tbf H, most of the complaints and demands for straight p/r come from the "its our sporting culture in this country" mindset (not you specifically but in general). That is by direct comparison with other sports, primarily football.

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why do posters have this compulsion to quote what other sports have (not just you), I couldn't give a flying one what other sports and countries do, like a single Division in the NRL, or a player draft system in the States, or an international panel of players in Cricket, even an European League in Basketball.

Probably because some posters talk about what is natural and innate in the unique British sporting landscape.

And do so inaccurately.

But you were asking about Sheffield Wednesday earlier, weren't you? It's a very odd form of rugby they play.

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

This all feels very "correlation is causation" with plenty of confirmation bias thrown in for good measure. 

None of what you say really answers that question of how we get more people - and a more diverse range of people - watching rugby league. It's just "everything is fine, the product is fine, we just don't have enough cities". It seems to place all of the blame on just one of the "four Ps" of marketing, and neglecting the possibility that the other three could also be the problem. 

If Leeds can't pull in wealthy punters from the "golden triangle" of North Leeds for a game against world champion St Helens, why would they find it any easier for a game against London or Newcastle? How many people are genuinely thinking, "I like the look of that, but the population of St Helens is only 180,000 people?". 

If we are struggling to pull in younger audiences in the heartlands, why would a team in Bristol be able to pull in younger audiences, and why would they be able to do something that our heartland clubs can't do? 

If a city-based club like Bradford finds it difficult to engage the Asian community on their doorstep, why would a club in West London find it any easier?

Like I say, geography is a right answer to a particular question. But for the big question - the real question - that we should be trying to answer, it's really not the issue. The issue comes down to the people the sport wants to reach, what those people want in return for their leisure time and money, and what the sport can do to deliver that. The location is, at best, secondary. 

I agree that it's not only geography, the product and promotion are also issues.  Price could be too if those in that "golden triangle" think it's too cheap and therefore can't be much good.  Re St Helens, it's hardly likely that those non-fans know its population, it's more that they haven't heard it mentioned in the news much (if at all) and other similar reasons why they won't think of it as a place of much importance.

The product has problems in my eyes as well.  I'm in agreement with @Harry Stottleand others that the game has become dull and predictable in the past several years as the bizarre obsession with it flowing as fast as possible has taken hold.  The predictable sameness of the play produced as a result makes the game look simple, which we know is a claim made by its RU detractors.  More than likely it flows too fast for most newcomers to it to grasp that it's not so simple.

The product isn't only on the field though, the makeup of the league is part of the product too, and I suggest a big part.  A national league is one type of product, a multinational competition like the Champions League etc. another and a regional league like SL yet another.  I suggest that promoting the latter successfully is a lot more difficult than promoting the others.  Its look conforms to the negative stereotypes about the game spread by detractors.

Promotion is an issue too, how many times do we see someone here complain that promotion of one of the game's bigger matches is almost non-existent?  Promotion costs money though, something the game is chronically short of and consequently tends to do things on the cheap.  Promotion is also dependent on the product one has to promote, and the game's offering isn't easy to promote successfully.

Clubs in Bristol or West London would still struggle to engage a new, younger and/or more diverse audience within the game's existing structure and product.  First they'd need something to attract that audience to at least come and check the game out, then they'd need a product and presentation which can hook them and make them want to come back.  Presentation, like promotion, also costs money, so the lack of money in the game limits how good the presentation can be.

So the lack of money has a lot to do with those other issues, and geography has a lot to do with the lack of money.

[Harry Stottle]

19 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Probably because some posters talk about what is natural and innate in the unique British sporting landscape.

And do so inaccurately.

But you were asking about Sheffield Wednesday earlier, weren't you? It's a very odd form of rugby they play.

Think you are getting me mixed up with Gubrats Ginge, unless I made a sly throw away comment which I can't recall, but please show me the evidence then I will concede.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Think you are getting me mixed up with Gubrats Ginge, unless I made a sly throw away comment which I can't recall, but please show me the evidence then I will concede.

It's certainly possible - I've had a lot of notifications today and scrolling on my phone (which I'm now thankfully not doing) is never that clear to me.

The rest of the post holds good though. There is a belief that frictionless P&R is a vital part of British sporting culture and yet that is far from being true, even in traditional leagues and sports - plus, a useful reason to look at other sports and other ideas, is to see what clearly didn't work, what clearly did, and see if there is anything that can be shared or learnt there.

It's as basic as that, really.

[gittinsfan]

I don't think many people would deny that Leigh fully deserved their promotion at the end of last season.If IMG gradings were in place then, there is a fair chance they would have been denied promotion.This worries me.If this assumed "fair transparent weighting system" does not materialise,I wonder how many on here will change their opinions.Or will the SL I'm alright Jack mindset continue.

[Oxford]

4 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

If IMG gradings were in place then, there is a fair chance they would have been denied promotion.

I don't think that accurate gittinsfan. I think they had far too many things in place that would've fitted easily and are doing even more now.

Deks is perfect for IMG and it's vision.

[glossop saint]

3 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

I don't think many people would deny that Leigh fully deserved their promotion at the end of last season.If IMG gradings were in place then, there is a fair chance they would have been denied promotion.This worries me.If this assumed "fair transparent weighting system" does not materialise,I wonder how many on here will change their opinions.Or will the SL I'm alright Jack mindset continue.

This has been discussed many times on this thread, with many people saying that there is actually a very good chance that under the proposed system then Leigh actually would have gone up. Good stadium, good fan engagement, probably good none central funding finances, good results.  

Obviously we are awaiting what the weighting is, and I have said many many times that it needs to allow movement between the divisions.  If it doesn't I will happily say that it isn't good enough.  Though you seem to be very negative based on a very big 'if' that even those in favour of the proposal acknowledge that the system hinges on and then use that as a stick to beat others with.

[GeordieSaint]

6 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

I don't think many people would deny that Leigh fully deserved their promotion at the end of last season.If IMG gradings were in place then, there is a fair chance they would have been denied promotion.This worries me.

That is pure speculation and based on assumptions. 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

4 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

That is pure speculation and based on assumptions. 

We've had seventy seven pages of speculation and assumptions from both sides of the argument.

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, GeordieSaint said:

That is pure speculation and based on assumptions. 

Could you pick it out from the crowd? Would you know it anywhere?

I think you were pretty close to a definition of an opinion there.

I also think it's what we're all doing on this issue because there's not an awful lot to go on and what there is is quite confusing.

[Dovster]

6 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

That is pure speculation and based on assumptions. 

I agree it is based on assumptions. The assumption that IMG would not relegate Toulouse

[Oxford]

Has anyone seen any evidence that the TV contract talks and the criteria for grading aren't actually the only things that IMG is doing?

I'm still waiting on the attack on the market footprint and media presence if that helps!

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

That is pure speculation and based on assumptions. 

The most recent team promoted to Super League on the back of a proposal rather than earning it on the field was Leigh.

[gittinsfan]

20 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I don't think that accurate gittinsfan. I think they had far too many things in place that would've fitted easily and are doing even more now.

Deks is perfect for IMG and it's vision.

Leigh should 100% been promoted,but without sensible weightings the possibility remains.