Sun 11th June : SL : Wakefield Trinity v Leeds Rhinos KO 15:00

[OnStrike]

What a result! Just checked the score, hadn't bothered earlier assumed Leeds would have walked it. Fair play to Wakefield.

[sentoffagain2]

   Well done Wakey lets hope you can make a fight of it with Cas.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, redjonn said:

when you listened to Smith last season and the beginning of this I got the sense he didn't have much say in those that left the squad nor the recruitment of most of this squad.

To add Leeds have had a number of coaches over the last few years. all with poor results against expectations that such a club should have bar a few surprises like the CC win and getting to the grand final last year.  For me they have had a poor squad of players over a number of years now... 

I think the problem is more fundamental than just the coach that happens to be stuck with managing an overall poor squad. Plus having to cope with the leaving of such as Hardaker, Sutcliffe plus the impact of current squad players going on the other squad members etc.  They also have an higher opinion of some of the academy players that come through or put too much emphasis on them being part of a squad that is limited if run of injuries. 

I accept the coach has to bear some responsibility and I know you have advocated early in season/start of season he wasn't the right coach.  I myself think he shouldn't be having players not in their strongest positions nor his tinkering in pre-season trying in his word to gain flexibility in the squad which to me leads a factor in being inconsistent.

That inconsistency ultimately leads to impact on players confidence    This as I say above comes from the pre-season tinkering.

Paul Caddick should be looking at fundamentals within the whole  Leeds set-up and whether the focus is were it needs to be.

I think there has been problems with the squad, definitely. However its never been "that bad".

The coaches you are right to note. However each of them I'd argue has been either a cheap option or a fresh coach with no experience of coaching first grade. Arguably they've all been shown, through no fault of their own, to have shortcomings.

I'd bet Smith would be a half decent coach at Leeds if he wasn't experimenting with his ideas as all coaches do in the earlier stages of their careers. (Half a season at Bradford, 3 games for Tonga, and 48 in the QLD Cup). In my view, Leeds shouldn't be a club where coaches come to learn the ropes of top tier management.

[Tommygilf]

Definitely a few rhinos fans talking like this tonight!

 

[graveyard johnny]

18 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

. In my view, Leeds shouldn't be a club where coaches come to learn the ropes of top tier management.

well said - terrible appointment

[Agbrigg]

46 minutes ago, Leonard said:

A few squeaky bums in Cas suddenly?

I think Westerman will step up and lick them into shape

[Josef K]

1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

IF Leeds were to sack Smith who could they replace him with?

Mr & Mrs Hetherington 

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

well said - terrible appointment

Even Brian Mac had done a head coach role in SL before Leeds (at London too, which arguably was a uniquely difficult challenge). Bluey Mclennan had been a successful NZ coach for 3 years before taking on the Rhinos job. Even Tony Smith had coached at Huddersfield in SL and the 2nd Division for 3 years before Leeds. 

Since then we've had David Furner, who barring a totally failed run as Canberra Head Coach 5 years prior, had only ever held assistant coach roles. Then Agar, who was already at the club came into the top role on an initially temporary basis and always seemed like a placeholder of sorts. Then Smith. 

All share a somewhat "cheap" signing aspect initially. For example I always thought the main reason Leeds wouldn't go again for Tony Smith, who left for GB on good terms, was more to do with him being able to command a better salary by that point!

[GeordieSaint]

2 hours ago, The Future is League said:

IF Leeds were to sack Smith who could they replace him with?

Mark Applegarth…

[Wellsy4HullFC]

17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Even Brian Mac had done a head coach role in SL before Leeds (at London too, which arguably was a uniquely difficult challenge). Bluey Mclennan had been a successful NZ coach for 3 years before taking on the Rhinos job. Even Tony Smith had coached at Huddersfield in SL and the 2nd Division for 3 years before Leeds. 

Since then we've had David Furner, who barring a totally failed run as Canberra Head Coach 5 years prior, had only ever held assistant coach roles. Then Agar, who was already at the club came into the top role on an initially temporary basis and always seemed like a placeholder of sorts. Then Smith. 

All share a somewhat "cheap" signing aspect initially. For example I always thought the main reason Leeds wouldn't go again for Tony Smith, who left for GB on good terms, was more to do with him being able to command a better salary by that point!

Sounds a similar issue that Hull had prior to Smith. We'd not signed a previous head coach since the merger John Kear (his assistant at the time, although had some experience), Peter Sharp (Aussie assistant), Agar (his assistant), Gentle (Aussie assistant), Radford (his assistant), Hodgson (Aussie assistant)...

There was a bad pattern emerging! Nearly 2 decades of assistants!

Sometimes you need an actual experienced coach! 

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Sounds a similar issue that Hull had prior to Smith. We'd not signed a previous head coach since the merger John Kear (his assistant at the time, although had some experience), Peter Sharp (Aussie assistant), Agar (his assistant), Gentle (Aussie assistant), Radford (his assistant), Hodgson (Aussie assistant)...

There was a bad pattern emerging! Nearly 2 decades of assistants!

Sometimes you need an actual experienced coach! 

Totally agree. 

And not to blow our own trumpet, but Leeds should be an easy sell to most top coaches, easier than most clubs in fact.

[north yorks trinity]

On 09/06/2023 at 22:25, north yorks trinity said:

...and strangely I'm quite looking forward to it. Don't really care about the result but something other than a heavy defeat would be a nice bonus. I'm just happy that the future direction of the club looks positive and will save my nerves for news on the takeover rather than immediate results on the field. We've had enough false dawns that there's plenty of reason for nervousness but an air of positivity doesn't depend on Sunday's scoreline.

Just to say that I do care now!!!! I threatened to care as soon as I saw the attitude of the team from kick off but managed to avoid having real hope till we went 18-14 up after the 2nd half drinks break...then it got proper tense. 

Not getting carried away as that Leeds performance must be a contender for "Worst Performance of the Season by a Team Not Called Wakefield" but what a gutsy performance from such an inexperienced and makeshift Wakey side. Must try not to get hopeful about the rest of the season - I can cope with the despair it's the hope that breaks me!

I'll just enjoy tonight 

[north yorks trinity]

30 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Mark Applegarth…

Hands off! 

 

[bobbruce]

46 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Even Brian Mac had done a head coach role in SL before Leeds (at London too, which arguably was a uniquely difficult challenge). Bluey Mclennan had been a successful NZ coach for 3 years before taking on the Rhinos job. Even Tony Smith had coached at Huddersfield in SL and the 2nd Division for 3 years before Leeds. 

Since then we've had David Furner, who barring a totally failed run as Canberra Head Coach 5 years prior, had only ever held assistant coach roles. Then Agar, who was already at the club came into the top role on an initially temporary basis and always seemed like a placeholder of sorts. Then Smith. 

All share a somewhat "cheap" signing aspect initially. For example I always thought the main reason Leeds wouldn't go again for Tony Smith, who left for GB on good terms, was more to do with him being able to command a better salary by that point!

It’s not just about signing top/experienced coaches. In a similar time frame Saints have had Cunningham (no experience but obviously didn’t work). Then Holbrook who didn’t have much experience as a head coach followed by Woolf who also didn’t have much experience as at least a club head coach. They have then followed that with Wellens again no head coach experience clearly the jury’s still out on him. Did Saints get lucky or are people high up making better decisions. 

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

It’s not just about signing top/experienced coaches. In a similar time frame Saints have had Cunningham (no experience but obviously didn’t work). Then Holbrook who didn’t have much experience as a head coach followed by Woolf who also didn’t have much experience as at least a club head coach. They have then followed that with Wellens again no head coach experience clearly the jury’s still out on him. Did Saints get lucky or are people high up making better decisions. 

Agreed, though is that the exception that proves the rule? Maybe not, but I take the point its never just the coach.

The Leeds squad was good enough to get to a Grand Final last year, and beat anyone on their day bar Saints. Smith seems to have changed a lot in the off season, and its made the team worse - which just doesn't make sense, and is arguably a distinct sign of his influence on the squad.

[LeytherRob]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

This is a real problem. Though like anything it depends on who is available and who can be convinced to become available. Leeds have the cash to make a tempting offer to basically anyone, but as evidenced by having Smith in the first place a cheaper option will be preferred...

If I was Gary Hetherington I'd be offering Paul Rowley a blank cheque before he inevitably gets snapped up by another big club in the next few years.

I think the writing was on the wall for Leeds this year with the preseason recruitment. Nene Macdonald and Luis Roberts in for Zak Hardaker and Liam Sutcliffe is a massive downgrade in the centres and Olpherts is a downgrade on Tom Briscoe. I think James McDonnell is the only signing I'd say was a good one for short and long term.

On Luis Roberts in particular, I know Leeds have injury issues but leaving him in at the deep end is just going to do his career more harm than good. When Leeds signed him I assumed he'd be back out on a season long loan in the championship or in the reserves so it's just bizarre seeing our 5th/6th choice outside back from the championship getting quite a bit of SL game time.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

If I was Gary Hetherington I'd be offering Paul Rowley a blank cheque before he inevitably gets snapped up by another big club in the next few years.

I think the writing was on the wall for Leeds this year with the preseason recruitment. Nene Macdonald and Luis Roberts in for Zak Hardaker and Liam Sutcliffe is a massive downgrade in the centres and Olpherts is a downgrade on Tom Briscoe. I think James McDonnell is the only signing I'd say was a good one for short and long term.

On Luis Roberts in particular, I know Leeds have injury issues but leaving him in at the deep end is just going to do his career more harm than good. When Leeds signed him I assumed he'd be back out on a season long loan in the championship or in the reserves so it's just bizarre seeing our 5th/6th choice outside back from the championship getting quite a bit of SL game time.

When I was writing that post, Rowley was exactly the man I had in mind when it comes to a "tempting offer".

Nene Macdonald has been pretty good I think, certainly one of our better performers this year. 

But the fact that the rest are so anonymous, or in Olpherts case infamous, is a damning indictment, in my opinion. I was happy with Briscoe and Sutcliffe being moved on. The former was a few seasons too late, and Sutcliffe for his own career should have probably left Leeds a few years ago too.

If Smith was a super coach, a Bielsa like figure who could make bang average players look like superstars and have a team be more than the sum of its parts then this recruitment strategy would be fine. 

He evidently isn't that coach.

All this is compounded by an almost total, and self inflicted by Smith, lack of leadership on the pitch. The players, most of whom are still there, picked a player as their captain from amongst them. The coach then undermined him, essentially said he didn't need his skillset, and undermined every other senior player in the squad by passing round the captaincy like its some kind of non-competitive kids sports day. So that's the captain, the senior players, and the squad as a whole being undermined in one go.

Cam Smith probably should be captain, but he can't know week to week whether he will be or not, for a reason that as far as I can see, has had literally no benefit to the team whatsoever.

[redjonn]

26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed, though is that the exception that proves the rule? Maybe not, but I take the point its never just the coach.

The Leeds squad was good enough to get to a Grand Final last year, and beat anyone on their day bar Saints. Smith seems to have changed a lot in the off season, and its made the team worse - which just doesn't make sense, and is arguably a distinct sign of his influence on the squad.

Not sure he had much input on losing Haraker,  Sutcliffe, Briscoe, Dwyer,, in particular Hardaker whom was a big factor in Leeds improvement and drive to the final last year.  Nor with the players already going this season plus uncertainty around a few others as to them being here.   That impacts the whole squad I'm sure.

Although as I noted in another comment he hasn't helped in building consistency with his pre-season and not putting players in their strongest positions   Handley, Myler, Martin, and during games Smith all spring to mind immediately, no experienced hooker or even cover, etc etc...

Not sure whom's managing the salary cap and hence the offers and leaving decisions but some decisions prior to Smith taking over. Hence need to look under the hood and change things their...

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by redjonn

[LeytherRob]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

When I was writing that post, Rowley was exactly the man I had in mind when it comes to a "tempting offer".

Nene Macdonald has been pretty good I think, certainly one of our better performers this year. 

But the fact that the rest are so anonymous, or in Olpherts case infamous, is a damning indictment, in my opinion. I was happy with Briscoe and Sutcliffe being moved on. The former was a few seasons too late, and Sutcliffe for his own career should have probably left Leeds a few years ago too.

If Smith was a super coach, a Bielsa like figure who could make bang average players look like superstars and have a team be more than the sum of its parts then this recruitment strategy would be fine. 

He evidently isn't that coach.

All this is compounded by an almost total, and self inflicted by Smith, lack of leadership on the pitch. The players, most of whom are still there, picked a player as their captain from amongst them. The coach then undermined him, essentially said he didn't need his skillset, and undermined every other senior player in the squad by passing round the captaincy like its some kind of non-competitive kids sports day. So that's the captain, the senior players, and the squad as a whole being undermined in one go.

Cam Smith probably should be captain, but he can't know week to week whether he will be or not, for a reason that as far as I can see, has had literally no benefit to the team whatsoever.

Nene is good going forward but he's not comfortable moving laterally so you need good defensive players either side of him because he makes some really poor reads defensively. Last year he had Inu and Lam covering that weakness but even so the majority of tries we conceded came down the left edge where he was. Playing him with players like Roberts or Olpherts leaves the edge massively exposed.

Agree with everything you've said though, the captaincy debacle was just baffling and he just doesn't look like he can get the best out of players. 

[Tommygilf]

17 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Not sure he had much input on losing Haraker,  Sutcliffe, Briscoe, Dwyer,, in particular Hardaker whom was a big factor in Leeds improvement and drive to the final last year.  Nor with the players already going this season plus uncertainty around a few others as to them being here.   That impacts the whole squad I'm sure.

Although as I noted in another comment he hasn't helped in building consistency with his pre-season and not putting players in their strongest positions   Handley, Myler, Martin, and during games Smith all spring to mind immediately, no experienced hooker or even cover, etc etc...

Not sure whom's managing the salary cap and hence the offers and leaving decisions but some decisions prior to Smith taking over. Hence need to look under the hood and change things their...

 

I agree that not all the squad management side can be put on Smith. That said, I'm sure he was happy with a fair few leaving too.

For example, Smith is clearly not phased in the slightest by not having a senior recognised hooker in the squad. Its arguably counter to his gameplan and philosophy of how RL should be played with the ball in the hands of creative and running pivots. 

The problem with this however is that if Smith is replaced, the first thing a new coach is going to do is look for a decent senior 9 to come in. Ironically if done soon enough that 9 could still be Leeming! But I'm not sure if this another example of squad management ineptitude, or Smith having too much influence on the squad, or both?

Likewise, our defence is arguably the only one in Super League that is deliberately passive. We simply must be coached to not have linespeed. Again this is contrary to the grain, but its contrary for good reason imo because it makes no sense; just like the captaincy debacle.

I think a more experienced coach would have recognised what Leeds are as a club and what the expectations are, and managed his own desires to experiment or play differently to suit that situation. Instead in his first full season in charge Smith has gone whole hog with some objectively daft ideas, and is now left looking increasingly isolated.

[Tommygilf]

26 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Nene is good going forward but he's not comfortable moving laterally so you need good defensive players either side of him because he makes some really poor reads defensively. Last year he had Inu and Lam covering that weakness but even so the majority of tries we conceded came down the left edge where he was. Playing him with players like Roberts or Olpherts leaves the edge massively exposed.

Agree with everything you've said though, the captaincy debacle was just baffling and he just doesn't look like he can get the best out of players. 

I mean from what I've seen from him he's been really good for us, and I haven't noticed the same defensive frailties. But yes I agree that having Olpherts and Roberts on his inside, Macdonald aside frankly, isn't a recipe for success.

I think your last para is what is most troubling going forward. We've had a few games now where Smith has openly criticised the players afterwards. That can have a positive effect sometimes, but we're sat on 1 win in 7 matches played in all competitions and have just lost to the clear 2 worst teams in the league this year; if the positive effect is coming, it needs to come fast.

Criticising players for lack of leadership, when that is the direct result of a policy he has implemented suggests troubled waters ahead to me.

[sentoffagain2]

  When Leeds signed Olpherts i said it was a poor decision at Cas he was very average with a poor pair of hands.Agree with Tommy about Macdonald i think he has played ok this season and seems to be much fitter than when at Leigh.I didn't rate Sutcliffe very highly and i would prefer Macdonald.

[Damien]

Great result for Wakefield, congratulations on getting your first win. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Damien

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The coaches you are right to note. However each of them I'd argue has been either a cheap option or a fresh coach with no experience of coaching first grade. Arguably they've all been shown, through no fault of their own, to have shortcomings.

NZ Warriors have been revitalised this year and are performing much better than in quite a few season's since wait for it .............. Richard Agar has joined the coaching staff.

[Bobby123]

On 07/06/2023 at 18:58, Morris Wanchuk said:

I work with a few Leeds fans who are nervous about this but even after Sunday’s debacle they still can’t get it into their heads just how bad this Trinity team is. Leeds to win by god knows how many. 

What a day! Temp in the eighties, Trinity whupping Leeds And The Rocky Horror Picture Show on BBC 2. Cant get any better.