Whitehaven

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, RP London said:

I'm glad you posted this as I was about to comment with regards Sheffield and the fact that without the Eagles the fledgling junior set ups wouldnt even be fledgling and that seeps further south than here too (not sure quite how far south you could say though). 

Its great sitting here saying Cumbria would survive without Haven but how true is that really? how much does having Haven mean that the community game up there is strong. without being there and seeing the interaction I think it is very hard to judge how much you could lose quite a chunk of Cumbria with that one loss, and the knock on to that could be the end of Workington and the rest of Cumbria.. 

I agree with you about places like the heavy woollen district where the SL is right there but in other areas, those outpost areas, how much is it dependent on the semi pro teams being there as a focal point... we can speculate but only those involved up there could really tell us. 

Any club going bust is a loss to the game, how big a loss and what that impact is is hard to tell until it happens sadly.

I don't want any club to go bust, but we also need to be clear about what the strength of the sport is in a given area.

Sheffield are a prime example of a local set up that probably isn't resilient enough yet to withstand losing a direct professional link. It will be interesting to see going forward however if more clubs from around Doncaster and Barnsley end up coming under their radar in future.

Equally though, this local set up is still relatively small scale. Part of that is the simple lack of visibility most (semi) pro clubs have outside of Super League. They're for the most part small scale, part time entities. It would be like asking Guiseley AFC to be responsible for footballs interest in their area - absurd. An interesting point to consider too is that whilst latent support can exist, generationally, a chunk of new supporters shift away to "easier to support" (which basically means watch on TV, play on a video game, get the kit) teams. Its not rocket science in that regard.

If one was to ask which is more important to RL in Whitehaven, indeed Cumbria, Whitehaven RLFC or Kells and the other amateur clubs, the latter wins hands down every day for me. I don't want there to ever have to be that choice, but that situation may be forced on some. Knowing how the proverbial axe would swing would hopefully encourage some better management.

[Saint Toppy]

Surprisingly nobody has said it yet so i'll stick my head above the parapet - Cumbrian Franchise !!!

I've said it numerous times on here over the years that I dont think any of the current Cumbrian clubs will ever be in a strong enough position to play at the top level again. Between the 3 Championship clubs and the numerous amateur clubs the county has a very long and extreemly strong history with RL and for me its the ideal area for the RFL to be targetting as an 'expansion' towards having another SL side.

Whether the fans of Workington & Whitehaven would ever come together to support some form of North Cumbria franchise is another matter, but in terms of a future SL team i'd love to see a strong franchise team from Cumbria before one from places like Newcastle, Midlands, France etc.

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

With the greatest of respect, I'd suggest that comments about clubs outside SL 'having a misplaced sense of importance' is symptomatic of the 'I'm alright Jack' mentality in our sport and that has contributed to a huge split in the game and loss of community......and that's exactly why the game is in the situation it's in. 

Its business, and business doesn't account for sentiment. 

It's not "I'm alright Jack", its "stop walking a tightrope when you don't have to and then cry when you fall off". That's not the club's fault entirely, they're only 1 or 2 promotions away from Super League because there aren't enough clubs. But that is an entirely false hope that has led more than a few clubs to the bucket collections in the recent past.

Likewise, the conflation of the semi pro game with the community game is a common fallback for many. Its lazy, and doesn't reflect the practical reality that is the community game in many areas is resilient enough to go on without 1 semi pro team.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Surprisingly nobody has said it yet so i'll stick my head above the parapet - Cumbrian Franchise !!!

I've said it numerous times on here over the years that I dont think any of the current Cumbrian clubs will ever be in a strong enough position to play at the top level again. Between the 3 Championship clubs and the numerous amateur clubs the county has a very long and extreemly strong history with RL and for me its the ideal area for the RFL to be targetting as an 'expansion' towards having another SL side.

Whether the fans of Workington & Whitehaven would ever come together to support some form of North Cumbria franchise is another matter, but in terms of a future SL team i'd love to see a strong franchise team from Cumbria before one from places like Newcastle, Midlands, France etc.

In fairness, that is what the Cumbrian clubs were originally founded on the premise of to enter the RFL. A merger of sorts when Whitehaven and Workington were large enough commercial entities to support playing in the RFL on their own. 

FWIW for it to happen I suspect 1 club would have to be very weak, and the other close to but unable to bridge the gap to full time Super League on its own. 

[RP London]

18 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't want any club to go bust, but we also need to be clear about what the strength of the sport is in a given area.

Sheffield are a prime example of a local set up that probably isn't resilient enough yet to withstand losing a direct professional link. It will be interesting to see going forward however if more clubs from around Doncaster and Barnsley end up coming under their radar in future.

Equally though, this local set up is still relatively small scale. Part of that is the simple lack of visibility most (semi) pro clubs have outside of Super League. They're for the most part small scale, part time entities. It would be like asking Guiseley AFC to be responsible for footballs interest in their area - absurd. An interesting point to consider too is that whilst latent support can exist, generationally, a chunk of new supporters shift away to "easier to support" (which basically means watch on TV, play on a video game, get the kit) teams. Its not rocket science in that regard.

If one was to ask which is more important to RL in Whitehaven, indeed Cumbria, Whitehaven RLFC or Kells and the other amateur clubs, the latter wins hands down every day for me. I don't want there to ever have to be that choice, but that situation may be forced on some. Knowing how the proverbial axe would swing would hopefully encourage some better management.

but that's what I am talking about too.. what is the exact relationship between Whitehaven and Kells.. what do the kids want, what makes them turn up at Kells etc etc. 

While there is an argument that kids watch Super League then just go to the amateur club, perhaps they watch the local semi pro club then go to the amateur or perhaps they watch the amateur club and go to the junior section all individual answers of course and with a strong influence from the parents and peers, of course, too. Amateur clubs do an awful lot to increase the junior sections and they do their own work and to think otherwise would be wrong. BUT to take one link of a chain away sometimes doesnt matter, sometimes it has a massive consequence you only find when you remove it. 

If, for a bit of bucket rattling, we dont need to take that link of the chain out then that is probably the best way to go. If it is a permanent state of not being affordable then that is a different matter. 

Many business and private individuals for that matter have to take loans to get over humps we tend not to judge them too harshly for it, they get repaid and all is fine. It probably isnt so easy for a semi pro RL club that has just lost a large chunk of central funding. if they can get over the hump and reorganise then that is a good thing in the long term and this short term pain will be worth it. 

As I said earlier Glasshouses. Many SL supporters dont recognise that begging bowls have been out in some of the clubs before, some have defaulted on loans others are lucky and its the owner who puts his hand in his pocket before asking others. Semi Pro clubs are the same and some are lucky to have owners or board members that can do this before the begging bucket comes out, others are not. 

regular offenders I would agree with what has been said by many here and maybe its time for them to stop but as a one off I cannot quite get my head around the "anti" attitude TBH.. there but for the grace of god etc.

Edited July 12, 2023 by RP London

[Barley Mow]

34 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its business, and business doesn't account for sentiment. 

It's not "I'm alright Jack", its "stop walking a tightrope when you don't have to and then cry when you fall off". That's not the club's fault entirely, they're only 1 or 2 promotions away from Super League because there aren't enough clubs. But that is an entirely false hope that has led more than a few clubs to the bucket collections in the recent past.

Likewise, the conflation of the semi pro game with the community game is a common fallback for many. Its lazy, and doesn't reflect the practical reality that is the community game in many areas is resilient enough to go on without 1 semi pro team.

You say that they don't have to walk that tightrope, but it seems to me that the tightrope in question is semi-pro rugby league. If they aren't walking this tightrope, they don't exist.

There may be things they can do to increase income, but their outgoings seem to just cover what is necessary to run as a middle of the road championship club.

Spend less and there's a big risk of being in L1, where there are increased travel costs, less central funding and only 9 home league matches to gain match day income - potentially leaving them in a worse position even if able to reduce player payments, etc.

Which of our semi-pro clubs (without a benefactor) are in a significantly better position, where a bad season or two wouldn't result in financial problems?

What risk (tightrope) are you suggesting they can step back from and still continue to operate?

Edited July 12, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, RP London said:

but that's what I am talking about too.. what is the exact relationship between Whitehaven and Kells.. what do the kids want, what makes them turn up at Kells etc etc. 

While there is an argument that kids watch Super League then just go to the amateur club, watch the local semi pro club then go to the amateur or watch the amateur club and go to the junior section all individual answers of course and with a strong influence from the parents and peers, of course, too. Amateur clubs do an awful lot to increase the junior sections and they do their own work and to think otherwise would be wrong. BUT to take one link of a chain away sometimes doesnt matter, sometimes it has a massive consequence you only find when you remove it. 

If, for a bit of bucket rattling, we dont need to take that link of the chain out then that is probably the best way to go. If it is a permanent state of not being affordable then that is a different matter. 

Many business and private individuals for that matter have to take loans to get over humps we tend not to judge them too harshly for it, they get repaid and all is fine. It probably isnt so easy for a semi pro RL club that has just lost a large chunk of central funding. if they can get over the hump and reorganise then that is a good thing in the long term and this short term pain will be worth it. 

As I said earlier Glasshouses. Many SL supporters dont recognise that begging bowls have been out in some of the clubs before, some have defaulted on loans others are lucky and its the owner who puts his hand in his pocket before asking others. Semi Pro clubs are the same and some are lucky to have owners or board members that can do this before the begging bucket comes out, others are not. 

regular offenders I would agree with what has been said by many here and maybe its time for them to stop but as a one off I cannot quite get my head around the "anti" attitude TBH.. there but for the grace of god etc.

I would be amazed if kids at Kells etc training were wearing anything other than NRL and Super League club gear. Mainly because commercially these club cater to them whereas many semi pro clubs don't. I'd also put it that given the state of the semi professional club, do you think the quite successful amateur clubs in the area are going to be more or less dependent on them and their involvement (if that happens)?

As you say, regular offenders is an issue. I don't personally have a major issue with Whitehaven getting the buckets out whenever they need to, it will have its consequences long term but such is life. Where some have an issue is that it devalues the Second Tier that is, for a lot of clubs at least, trying ever harder to professionalise. I get that, and ultimately its the lack of pro clubs in the sport that means our pyramid is compressed - to the benefit of very few.

[Neutralfan7]

If those commenting can just pop a couple pound on the page that would be great... Thanks

[Roughyed Rats]

15 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

You say that they don't have to walk that tightrope, but it seems to me that the tightrope in question is semi-pro rugby league. If they aren't walking this tightrope, they don't exist.

There may be things they can do to increase income, but their outgoings seem to just cover what is necessary to run as a middle of the road championship club.

Spend less and there's a big risk of being in L1, where there are increased travel costs, less central funding and only 9 home league matches to gain match day income - potentially leaving them in a worse position.

Which of our semi-pro clubs (without a benefactor) are in a significantly better position, where a bad season or two wouldn't result in financial problems?

What risk (tightrope) are you suggesting they can step back from and still continue to operate?

Exactly this. Increasingly, the only option for the game outside of the 'elite' level may be to go back to part-time winter RL. At least it may have the ability to secure some TV coverage and might attract the fair weather supporters to a few games when their elite team is not playing. Of course, that creates a massive problem for the top flight clubs as how do they then get playing time for their youngsters as the reserve league is an absolute embarrassment for a 'professional' sport. 

[RP London]

17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I would be amazed if kids at Kells etc training were wearing anything other than NRL and Super League club gear. Mainly because commercially these club cater to them whereas many semi pro clubs don't. I'd also put it that given the state of the semi professional club, do you think the quite successful amateur clubs in the area are going to be more or less dependent on them and their involvement (if that happens)?

As you say, regular offenders is an issue. I don't personally have a major issue with Whitehaven getting the buckets out whenever they need to, it will have its consequences long term but such is life. Where some have an issue is that it devalues the Second Tier that is, for a lot of clubs at least, trying ever harder to professionalise. I get that, and ultimately its the lack of pro clubs in the sport that means our pyramid is compressed - to the benefit of very few.

and kids running around the parks of sheffield playing football do it in premier league shirts (and not local ones) but that doesnt mean the local teams arent important. The only people that can answer the question of how important Whitehaven is, with all respect, are the people in whitehaven and kells etc its not you or me. But again, taking links out of chains you only know the consequences properly when you take it out. 

There are plenty of teams that go from begging bowls to a big success. Any club that thinks that may want to look at themselves and their past and what value they are actually adding to the second tier and whether they have, in the past, done things that may devalue it.. I would put money that there are very few, if any, clubs in the 2nd tier that can say they have not needed a hand out from someone, or help from someone, or havent gone bust in the past, and probably not too distant. 

 

[RP London]

7 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Exactly this. Increasingly, the only option for the game outside of the 'elite' level may be to go back to part-time winter RL. At least it may have the ability to secure some TV coverage and might attract the fair weather supporters to a few games when their elite team is not playing. Of course, that creates a massive problem for the top flight clubs as how do they then get playing time for their youngsters as the reserve league is an absolute embarrassment for a 'professional' sport. 

I cannot see them getting any TV coverage in winter to be fair. None top level and up against top level RU and football.. thats whistling in the wind IMHO. Maybe Winter is better for them, who knows, but its not going to magic up a TV contract.

[Simon Hall]

42 minutes ago, Neutralfan7 said:

If those commenting can just pop a couple pound on the page that would be great... Thanks

I would have done but the minimum is a fiver.

[Bearman]

Two struggling clubs in the same little borough that would rather die than cooperate.

With their resources they could be be comfortable in the Championship, washing their faces and giving the local kids an opportunity to carve out careers in RL

"WHAT???........Save them "jam eaters"? I would rather stick needles in my eyes than watch that lot"

" OVER MY DEAD BODY"

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Bearman

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Likewise, the conflation of the semi pro game with the community game is a common fallback for many. Its lazy, and doesn't reflect the practical reality that is the community game in many areas is resilient enough to go on without 1 semi pro team.

Not surprisingly I disagree Tommy, but it is a time will tell thing which will prove either of us right or wrong.

[DOGFATHER]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its business, and business doesn't account for sentiment. 

It's not "I'm alright Jack"

Business!!! Really???

If it is business, how many clubs in SL would be in "business" if it wasn't for a sugar daddy pumping (in some cases £M's per season) in to them?

How many clubs do you think would be sustainable business' if it wasn't for wealthy owners pumping money in and willing to write it off?

How many club owners do you think will see a return on their investment? 

How many teams broke even, never mind made a profit? Wakefield was the only one, wasn't it????

All this rehashed "Framing the future" proposal is about, is trying to ensure the clubs at the top get a bigger slice of the pie, in the hope that the sugar daddy's won't have to pump as much money in, and to try to make the clubs more sustainable, because they cannot afford to keep throwing money away like they have done for years.

The problem with that dream is, it won't mean the sugar daddy's at the top don't spend as much, or clubs becoming more sustainable. The basic problem is, most clubs are spending more than they are making, the same as it was when SL started. It would seem nothing has changed in that regard, other than weakening the teams outside of SL and widening the gap between the have's and have not's. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by DOGFATHER

[The Blues Ox]

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Surprisingly nobody has said it yet so i'll stick my head above the parapet - Cumbrian Franchise !!!

I've said it numerous times on here over the years that I dont think any of the current Cumbrian clubs will ever be in a strong enough position to play at the top level again. Between the 3 Championship clubs and the numerous amateur clubs the county has a very long and extreemly strong history with RL and for me its the ideal area for the RFL to be targetting as an 'expansion' towards having another SL side.

Whether the fans of Workington & Whitehaven would ever come together to support some form of North Cumbria franchise is another matter, but in terms of a future SL team i'd love to see a strong franchise team from Cumbria before one from places like Newcastle, Midlands, France etc.

No point in a merger, all that you end up with is just one team with about the same fan base and so what about all the talent produced up there? Nothing would change, SL teams would still just come in and cherry pick the best talent so it's not like you would end up with a stronger team.

[donald]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

In short, yeah. Whitehaven are an equivalent 7th to 8th tier sized football club in a not very well off area and should be financially managed as such. Spaffing money up the wall on lost causes that then can't be paid for, instead of investing in the community level of the game, is exactly why the game is in the situation its in.

West Cumbria is a pretty well off area with large chunk working at Sellafield making 50k a year or more . And the vast majority of players at both clubs will be making a lot of coin in there full time jobs so in reality rugby wages is just extra pocket money

[Saint Toppy]

18 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

No point in a merger, all that you end up with is just one team with about the same fan base and so what about all the talent produced up there? Nothing would change, SL teams would still just come in and cherry pick the best talent so it's not like you would end up with a stronger team.

Gotta disagree. At the moment you have 3 struggling Championship clubs in Cumbria, 2 of them relatively close to each other. Youngsters in Cumbria will almost always choose to go to a strong SL side given the opportunity (take Morgan Knowles as a good example) in order to progress their careers rather than a struggling local championship club. If they had a local SL team to go then i'm sure a good portion of those youngsters would go there instead.

You say the same fan base - disagree with that as well. At the moment the clubs target their fans from their local towns (Workington, Whitehaven etc.) If there was a single North Cumbria SL franchise then it would appeal to fans across the whole area not just 2 towns. I lived in Penrith for a fair few years and I met quite a few cumbria born lads who were supporters of clubs like Saints & Wigan rather than one of the local Cumbria teams because they wanted to go and watch SL rugby.

[dkw]

24 minutes ago, donald said:

West Cumbria is a pretty well off area with large chunk working at Sellafield making 50k a year or more .

What utter nonsense.

[donald]

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

What utter nonsense.

What's the nonsense.  That it's not a well off area or they're playing for pocket money . Most players with full time jobs and rugby wages are on a lot more than the majority of Super League players 

[The Blues Ox]

11 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Gotta disagree. At the moment you have 3 struggling Championship clubs in Cumbria, 2 of them relatively close to each other. Youngsters in Cumbria will almost always choose to go to a strong SL side given the opportunity (take Morgan Knowles as a good example) in order to progress their careers rather than a struggling local championship club. If they had a local SL team to go then i'm sure a good portion of those youngsters would go there instead.

You say the same fan base - disagree with that as well. At the moment the clubs target their fans from their local towns (Workington, Whitehaven etc.) If there was a single North Cumbria SL franchise then it would appeal to fans across the whole area not just 2 towns. I lived in Penrith for a fair few years and I met quite a few cumbria born lads who were supporters of clubs like Saints & Wigan rather than one of the local Cumbria teams because they wanted to go and watch SL rugby.

Oh I would agree if you are talking about putting a Cumbria team straight in to SL as it changes the dynamic completely but that is not an option under the new IMG criteria. 

[OriginalMrC]

One point which I don't think has been made is there's too many clubs in the championship. It was increased to 14 when it should have stayed at 12. This also damaged league 1. It means some clubs in the championship struggle with funding (especially with the pitiful central funding) and are also terrified of dropping into league 1 where they get no funding and only 9 home games a season! 

[dkw]

31 minutes ago, donald said:

What's the nonsense.  That it's not a well off area or they're playing for pocket money . Most players with full time jobs and rugby wages are on a lot more than the majority of Super League players 

West cumbria is absolutely not a well off area, unless your living in the Sellafield bubble. It has one of the highest rises in use of food banks in the country, having a few thousand earn much much more than the rest does not mean it is well off at all.

[Expatknight]

Maybe the answer is for The Championship and League 1 to become 2 conference leagues  split North / South where half way through the season the top half each come together and the bottom half do the same a bit like in soccer. I am sure something similar was talked about a few years ago.

The Championship this year as a competition has been, on the whole, very competitive and there have been some very exciting and close games and results that have not gone the way people predicted or expected.

it is a great shame that some of the clubs appear to be very poorly run. 

[Roughyed Rats]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Gotta disagree. At the moment you have 3 struggling Championship clubs in Cumbria, 2 of them relatively close to each other. Youngsters in Cumbria will almost always choose to go to a strong SL side given the opportunity (take Morgan Knowles as a good example) in order to progress their careers rather than a struggling local championship club. If they had a local SL team to go then i'm sure a good portion of those youngsters would go there instead.

You say the same fan base - disagree with that as well. At the moment the clubs target their fans from their local towns (Workington, Whitehaven etc.) If there was a single North Cumbria SL franchise then it would appeal to fans across the whole area not just 2 towns. I lived in Penrith for a fair few years and I met quite a few cumbria born lads who were supporters of clubs like Saints & Wigan rather than one of the local Cumbria teams because they wanted to go and watch SL rugby.

Who are the 3 struggling Championship clubs in Cumbria? The lack of understanding of anything outside of SL from the pomposity within never ceases to amaze me. If you think this would work, you have clearly never been to or really actually spoken to anybody connected to any of these clubs (not even the third which is in League 1 by the way). 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Roughyed Rats