Sun 27th Oct: Men's International: England v Samoa KO 2.30pm (BBC Two)

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, graveyard johnny said:

the only reasons I dont fawn over Dom Young 

never breaks a tackle

never makes a try for himself 

never makes a try for anyone else 

a turnstile in defence - will be dropped by the roosters mid season next year in favour of the wallabie guy 

And to cap it all, his mother smells of elderberries.

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 hour ago, StandOffHalf said:

That's not how I saw the opening 40 minutes as a whole, but cheers for your perspective.

If they can’t deduce they need to tighten up the ptb from giving away sets of 6 over and over the NRL is even further behind Super League than we all thought. 

Edited October 27, 2024 by Exiled Wiganer

[Just Browny]

I'm interested in what Wane's thinking is with Lewis. 

If he is thinking 'Lewis is an international player, let's give him some minutes at this level because Smith and Williams could get injured', I think that's fair enough.

If he thinks it is better to shoehorn Lewis in as interchange hooker, that's a bit worrying and David Waite-esque because Lewis clearly isn't a better hooker than a few of the alternatives in that position.

While Clark was pretty good today, I'd like to see Walker given a go next week. He has been better than Clark this year at domestic level (to my surprise) and is far more likely to be in the running for the Ashes and World Cup. 

[Worzel]

9 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

I'm interested in what Wane's thinking is with Lewis. 

If he is thinking 'Lewis is an international player, let's give him some minutes at this level because Smith and Williams could get injured', I think that's fair enough.

If he thinks it is better to shoehorn Lewis in as interchange hooker, that's a bit worrying and David Waite-esque because Lewis clearly isn't a better hooker than a few of the alternatives in that position.

While Clark was pretty good today, I'd like to see Walker given a go next week. He has been better than Clark this year at domestic level (to my surprise) and is far more likely to be in the running for the Ashes and World Cup. 

It’s a combination of 

1. Lewis is a generational talent, and whilst I’m happy with Williams and Smith I need to give him minutes to learn international rugby, and

2. Lewis can play 1, 6 and 7 brilliantly, and 9 competently, and so he makes the ideal spare back to have on the bench, plus even if I only use him as a replacement 9 I’ll still get to benefit from his world-class support running. 

Personally I’d pick Williams and Lewis because Lewis is a far better player than Smith. The latter is good but needs better players around him to look great, the former is great and makes worse players around him look better. The stats don’t lie. But given Wane is who is is, I understand sticking with a pairing he likes whilst having Lewis as a world-class utility.

It’s what Aussie coaches did with DCE for almost a decade, behind Thurston and Cronk, so hardly without precedent. 

[WN83]

11 minutes ago, Worzel said:

It’s a combination of 

1. Lewis is a generational talent, and whilst I’m happy with Williams and Smith I need to give him minutes to learn international rugby, and

2. Lewis can play 1, 6 and 7 brilliantly, and 9 competently, and so he makes the ideal spare back to have on the bench, plus even if I only use him as a replacement 9 I’ll still get to benefit from his world-class support running. 

Personally I’d pick Williams and Lewis because Lewis is a far better player than Smith. The latter is good but needs better players around him to look great, the former is great and makes worse players around him look better. The stats don’t lie. But given Wane is who is is, I understand sticking with a pairing he likes whilst having Lewis as a world-class utility.

It’s what Aussie coaches did with DCE for almost a decade, behind Thurston and Cronk, so hardly without precedent. 

That statistical comparison is borderline pointless from the BBC because while they play with the same shirt numbers on their backs at club level, they're totally different players. There is no way Smith can play like Lewis, he just hasn't got the physical attributes but Lewis doesn't come close in terms of game management and kicking a side around the field and that is so important in tight games, especially against better opponents than Samoa. As they shown last year against Tonga, they're actually a really well balanced paring but Williams is top class and it's tough to leave him out as well. 

 

Good problems to have at the end of the day. We have 3 players who cover all bases for us and allow us to play in different ways. Not only can you mix it up from the start of games but you can see how games are going and change it up as and when needed. 

[Damien]

18 minutes ago, Worzel said:

It’s a combination of 

1. Lewis is a generational talent, and whilst I’m happy with Williams and Smith I need to give him minutes to learn international rugby, and

2. Lewis can play 1, 6 and 7 brilliantly, and 9 competently, and so he makes the ideal spare back to have on the bench, plus even if I only use him as a replacement 9 I’ll still get to benefit from his world-class support running. 

Personally I’d pick Williams and Lewis because Lewis is a far better player than Smith. The latter is good but needs better players around him to look great, the former is great and makes worse players around him look better. The stats don’t lie. But given Wane is who is is, I understand sticking with a pairing he likes whilst having Lewis as a world-class utility.

It’s what Aussie coaches did with DCE for almost a decade, behind Thurston and Cronk, so hardly without precedent. 

All your stats confirm is that Smith and Lewis are two completely different players that play in different teams. Williams is more of a similar player to Lewis.

I do agree with your point number 2 though in that Lewis is a good bench option because he can cover 1,6,7 and 9 well. That is great versatility at international level.

[Click]

25 minutes ago, Worzel said:

It’s a combination of 

1. Lewis is a generational talent, and whilst I’m happy with Williams and Smith I need to give him minutes to learn international rugby, and

2. Lewis can play 1, 6 and 7 brilliantly, and 9 competently, and so he makes the ideal spare back to have on the bench, plus even if I only use him as a replacement 9 I’ll still get to benefit from his world-class support running. 

Personally I’d pick Williams and Lewis because Lewis is a far better player than Smith. The latter is good but needs better players around him to look great, the former is great and makes worse players around him look better. The stats don’t lie. But given Wane is who is is, I understand sticking with a pairing he likes whilst having Lewis as a world-class utility.

It’s what Aussie coaches did with DCE for almost a decade, behind Thurston and Cronk, so hardly without precedent. 

I think it probably mostly comes down to Smith being our best game manager, and in-game kicker by far, which makes him the 7 over Lewis.

[WN83]

The aim for England in this next couple of years will be to win an Ashes and then a World Cup (as unlikely as it is) and when it comes to games against the Kiwis and the Aussies, you'd imagine they'll be tight and based on territory much like the Grand Final a couple of weeks back. In the first 25 minutes of that Grand Final, I thought Wigan would've been in all sorts of trouble had they not had Harry Smith in the team. He got us out of trouble with his boot time and time again and those sides will put England in tough positions. It's no use having two fabulous attacking halves in your team, like Williams and Lewis if they're just defending their line all game and trying to make things happen from their own 40. 

[moorside roughyed]

Just watched the game on iPlayer as I couldn't watch it earlier. A wins a win but as Wane said,it wouldn't have the Aussies quaking in their boots. George Williams was impressive and as a Wire fan that was heartening. A bit of handbags at the end . Hoping for improvement next week when I'll be at headingley.

Edited October 27, 2024 by moorside roughyed

[bobbruce]

Got to agree with some of the earlier posters this isn’t a choice between Smith and Lewis. Smiths in as the controlling half it’s a choice between Williams and Lewis. I think Wanes got it about right in that they are the first choice halves but Lewis is that good a player he has to be found a spot somewhere. Even if that is playing him out of position. 

[daz39]

Enjoyed that, good performance by England and a cracking samoa try too.

Farnworth was very good.

[Mojo]

Too much class from England. The six again calls wore the samoans out. Some of them were questionable but I felt like the ref also let a few pass. As a Samoan supporter I thought we played well considering the amount of new players on debut. Samoan coach should be happy with a few of the players putting there hand up for the world cup spots. Milford needs to be dropped for the next game. Nanai isn't a strong defender and putting Milford on the same side as him wasn't a good idea. The English attacked that right side all day. Luciano was flopping all game.

George Williams was outstanding. The English spine were the difference for me. They controlled the game well. I can't wait for game 2 it should be a cracker

[JohnM]

Nothing to add really to what has alread been written, really. No issues with the refereeing, Farnworh, Williams etc outstanding.  Thoroughly enjoyed the whole afternoon. Just enough uncertainty. The palpable fightback from Samoa never materialised.  Two unfortunate mistakes from England, though, meant the score didn't really represent how good we were. 

Although we were in the West Stand, I have the same complaint as last time about the stadium. The Heatable Stand is NOT  the heated stand, which is a shame.

Edited October 27, 2024 by JohnM

[Dullish Mood]

@Kirmonds pouch which stand were you in for today’s game mate?  I was East Stand. Row DD.

[unapologetic pedant]

5 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

I like a ref who works with players. Some said that Moore was trying to let the game flow and didn't want to bin a Samoan. I think it is incumbent on a referee - especially a home referee - to let the visitors know what standards are expected and to maintain a dialogue. There wasn't communication.

My hunch is the Samoans regard persistent ruck infringements as an each way bet. Similar to Tonga last year.

Home ref, keen to avoid suspicion. Attempt to play on his anxiety by wilfully infringing and they either gain an unfair advantage or ensure an alibi for their expected loss.

Plus they can be confident evasive allusions to different ruck interpretations will pass unchallenged at pressers because RL journos don't deal in specifics.

[Hopie]

On balance I enjoyed my trip to see England play but really wanted to see a better performance. England dominated possession and territory and won 6 tries to 3. We gave them 2 tries on a plate, and although the other try was really good, they also bombed another certain try. You can only beat what is in front of you, and I think it is better to be winning on the BBC than not, but as the coach said we aren't going to worry the world champions with performances like that, you can't play well for half an hour then just give the other team a try, the last world cup final we were on only had 1 try. I hope there are a few changes next week, I think Lewis did was he was asked this week so should get a start next week, the crowd were keen to see him play, and seeing him play 9 felt like a waste.

Samoa were almost the opposite of Tonga as they had very little go forward but looked like they did have some creative players who could be dangerous if they got the chance. However they started poorly, particularly in defence, and looked gassed well before the end of the game, just like the first game last time they came over. Two games, no warm up matches and their coach is still talking about protecting player welfare by not having another game, I'm sure they could find another game this year that players could have sat out if that was really a problem. I hope they show up next week as we are on for a bigger audience in person and in the ground.

Poor crowd size and not much atmosphere, little to suggest this was a big event and not just those shouting out during the Siva Tau showing there were plenty of wallies about today. Annoyingly the big screen was very poorly used today, it wasn't a live feed of the game so we got lots of fancam shots when I wanted to see replays of the game, and it cut out completely during the pushing and shoving. 

 

[RigbyLuger]

6 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Annoyingly the big screen was very poorly used today, it wasn't a live feed of the game so we got lots of fancam shots when I wanted to see replays of the game, and it cut out completely during the pushing and shoving. 

 

That was just stupid. As if they'd never done a sporting event before, and think people want to see themselves more than anything else.

[Mojo]

I thought Bateman didn't do much for the English. If anything i thought Luai exposed his side for most of the game. Shaun Blore got the best of him a few times.

[StandOffHalf]

3 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

My hunch is the Samoans regard persistent ruck infringements as an each way bet. Similar to Tonga last year.

Home ref, keen to avoid suspicion. Attempt to play on his anxiety by wilfully infringing and they either gain an unfair advantage or ensure an alibi for their expected loss.

Plus they can be confident evasive allusions to different ruck interpretations will pass unchallenged at pressers because RL journos don't deal in specifics.

Perhaps, but I think Moore could have been more proactive in the first half. Blowing 10 6 agains is terrible for the game and just encourages some to don the tin-foil hat of saying that he was giving the home team team a leg-up.

Nip it in the bud; call Luai in and then sit someone down. That's how it should have been reffed, if there was a problem with interference, slowing-down, second efforts, flops.

[StandOffHalf]

6 hours ago, Worzel said:

It’s a combination of 

1. Lewis is a generational talent, and whilst I’m happy with Williams and Smith I need to give him minutes to learn international rugby, and

2. Lewis can play 1, 6 and 7 brilliantly, and 9 competently, and so he makes the ideal spare back to have on the bench, plus even if I only use him as a replacement 9 I’ll still get to benefit from his world-class support running. 

Personally I’d pick Williams and Lewis because Lewis is a far better player than Smith. The latter is good but needs better players around him to look great, the former is great and makes worse players around him look better. The stats don’t lie. But given Wane is who is is, I understand sticking with a pairing he likes whilst having Lewis as a world-class utility.

It’s what Aussie coaches did with DCE for almost a decade, behind Thurston and Cronk, so hardly without precedent. 

Those numbers are pretty stark. More than I expected, to be honest.

I suppose Smith's kicking is his main strength. I would like to see Lewis get the shirt for the second Test.

 

[StandOffHalf]

I'd bring in the Wire hooker for Clark. Obviously Thompson. Wardle in for Newman, if fit. Nsemba introduced off the bench, taking Knowles' spot. And Lewis into the halves.

[Ellandback]

1 hour ago, StandOffHalf said:

Perhaps, but I think Moore could have been more proactive in the first half. Blowing 10 6 agains is terrible for the game and just encourages some to don the tin-foil hat of saying that he was giving the home team team a leg-up.

Nip it in the bud; call Luai in and then sit someone down. That's how it should have been reffed, if there was a problem with interference, slowing-down, second efforts, flops.

Agreed. By all means give a couple of penalties or six again to start with, but then lay the law down and get someone sin binned. 

I also had trouble with the suggestion that the NRL and SL differ around the rucks. That maybe true, but 'release' means release and if you don't comply with the referee's instructions expect to get penalised. 

On a final point, I agree with the point that it is Williams or Lewis, not Smith or Lewis - the latter two play completely different games.  

Edited October 28, 2024 by Ellandback

[Worzel]

9 hours ago, WN83 said:

That statistical comparison is borderline pointless from the BBC because while they play with the same shirt numbers on their backs at club level, they're totally different players. There is no way Smith can play like Lewis, he just hasn't got the physical attributes but Lewis doesn't come close in terms of game management and kicking a side around the field and that is so important in tight games, especially against better opponents than Samoa. As they shown last year against Tonga, they're actually a really well balanced paring but Williams is top class and it's tough to leave him out as well. 

 

Good problems to have at the end of the day. We have 3 players who cover all bases for us and allow us to play in different ways. Not only can you mix it up from the start of games but you can see how games are going and change it up as and when needed. 

I’m sorry, but I fundamentally disagree. Lewis has a perfectly good kicking game, positionally. He has been coached for 18 months by Joe Ford and it shows. The Lewis of 2024 is not the Lewis of 2023 who relied upon Abdul to do that. On top of this, Lewis’ attacking kicks are far better and have far more impact than Smith. 

So yes he may not be quite as good as Smith at positional kicks, but the difference is not large, and that is in the context that Lewis also plays the roles of both Field and French in the Hull KR side. If he had the benefit of players like that around him, he might be even better.

But frankly that does not matter: He does not need to be 100% as good as Smith at one thing, if he is 200% as good as Smith as lots of other things. “Game management” is a phrase used by the advocates of very competent half-backs when arguing for them against clearly better, creative half-backs. It is the mindset of David Waite and Brian Noble rugby league… and those guys used to play loose forwards at Number 6 in order to “stifle” the Aussies too. Why not go the whole hog?

Aussies don’t do this. Daly Cherry-Evans was a far better kicker and “game manager” than Cooper Cronk, but never dislodged him from the Kangaroos side. 

[Cerulean]

11 hours ago, wilsontown said:

If you couldn't get some enjoyment out of that then possibly rugby league is not the sport for you.

Rugby League is my sport in more ways than you can count, but I was disappointed with the game, as a contest, and as an exhibition.

Samoa looked underprepared and disorganised and made unsatisfactory opponents. England slowed the play-the-ball down by prolonging the tackle and by pushing and pulling the tackled player back, permitted and encouraged in Super League: Samoa slowed the play-the-ball down by piling tacklers on, not allowed in Super League, and penalised. There seemed an awful lot of pushing, pulling, twisting, wrestling, shirt and arm holding, pleading for a penalty, which, I suspect, may have surprised a casual observer trying out the game. England’s (as with Super League) moving forward off the mark when playing the ball adds to the untidiness and confusion. This would take 10 minutes of the first round next season to cure, and I don’t understand why it’s not been cured yet. The commentary was awful, though it may have improved after the first 15 minutes: I wouldn’t know because I’d turned it off.

Some of the ball handling after the defence had been disrupted was a delight. England’s defence organisation was excellent, and while it may not be the the most obvious attraction of the sport, it’s worth focusing on. Williams was outstanding, and more should be made of this star player.

[bar red]

Really enjoyed the way we played today. Less structured, giving the players freedom to express. So much easier on the eye than the 6 and kick borefest we played under Bennett. Whether we can win at the highest levels is another matter but if we could playing the old fashioned British way, it would make the victory even more pleasant.