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Refereeing (Multiple Merged Threads)


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Or should the topic be that poorer sides get penalised more because they commit more offences like trying to slow the opposition down etc

Some people seem to have a strange agenda at the moment. 

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Two things from me.

1.  The better team in a game gets the 50/50's because many of these call are about the play the ball with one team looking to stop momentum and one team looking to get a quick restart.  You could call many of these either way but if the whistle is blown it is usually in favour of the attacking team.  The team on top winning the arm wrestle will get the calls... not because of favouritism but because they are on top.

2. The Dragons need to look at the players they have signed before the ref when judging the penalty count.

Edited by Dunbar
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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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2 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Or should the topic be that poorer sides get penalised more because they commit more offences like trying to slow the opposition down etc

Some people seem to have a strange agenda at the moment. 

No, the topic is fine as it is, a question posed. It's not a statement or outright opinion. The question was raised due to the perception by many at a French language forum.

As for the strange agenda, paranoia is rife it seems. 

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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Or, do fans of smaller clubs look for any old excuse as to why they aren't winning and find conspiracy theories the most comforting. You get the same in all sports. People will come up with anything to explain why they are hard done to and will cling on to those marginal calls where they feel hard done to and forget about the fortuitous calls that their own team received. You only have to see after any game how many fans complain about decisions gone against them seemingly forgetting the ones in favour of them. If you support the team that wins you're less likely to care. And so the people who care the most about refereeing decisions will likely be the teams playing the worst. Then of course you can throw outright bias into the mix too. Neutral fans rarely want the biggest and most successful teams to do well so have a degree of bias towards the underdogs.

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Top clubs are often bigger, faster and fitter than their opponents and are constantly applying more pressure. They are quicker off the line and are often bending the defence and trying to get a quick restart. This puts pressure on the opposition to contain them without infringing. Think about that from a refereeing point of view.

Edited by Scubby
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So, let’s start with the question itself - no, I don’t think bigger clubs get more favourable decisions from referees. However I don’t think that’s what your asking, I think you’re really asking do the dominant sides of the day get more favourable decisions, and that’s a much trickier thing to decide. 
 

With the starting example, to me Catalans have developed a real streak of grubbiness in their game in the last couple of years under McNamara, though I openly admit having the Tomkins brothers along with Micky Mac is also going to remind me of Wigan under Maguire, so it may be another association thing. I do however think referees pick up and play into those reputations, and it often becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I think the players whom become scrutinised by referees can happen at any club, and often follow them around their careers irrespective of the team. Bentley was the most penalised player in 2021 (despite missing a significant proportion to injury) whilst playing for Saints, and that has continued into the first game of the season.

One thing I do want to note though is I know referees are trained to look at the game in a different way to fans. I don’t think I have ever watched a game “neutrally” in my life, irrespective of whether Saints are playing or not. There are always teams I would like to see do well, or a result which would favour my team more, or a team I would like to see brought down a peg or two. I don’t think enough fans recognise their own internal biases in these types of discussions, even if it isn’t their team playing (and yes, I include myself on that). Referees often have tricks to manage players as well, like standing 12m back from the play the ball, so if the defending team pinch a metre/ go fractionally too early, it doesn’t matter - we as fans often aren’t privy to a lot of these though, and just see players standing infront of the ref etc.

Then you get to the point made above, players in dominant teams are likely to be fitter faster stronger. You here the ref all the time on telly shouting dominant, but again at games you don’t get that at games. I have enjoyed a return on sky games to having the video ref explanations. I think we could go further, and I would like us to adopt NFL approach where for “big” decisions (cards, on report, tries/ no tries maybe?) where the ref shares what they have seen and thus why the decision is as it is. I am sure we will still disagree with them, but that’s the beauty of being fans! 
 

so it’s a combination of all three of the above which gives the perception presented in the hypothesis, even if it’s likely far more prevalent at the player level rather than the team level.

Edited by Magic Superbeetle
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1 hour ago, Scubby said:

Top clubs are often bigger, faster and fitter than their opponents and are constantly applying more pressure. They are quicker off the line and are often bending the defence and trying to get a quick restart. This puts pressure on the opposition to contain them without infringing. Think about that from a refereeing point of view.

No doubt that plays a part, but I see it from both sides. Trinity in RL, Liverpool (child of the 80's) in football. 

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17 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Wouldn’t think so . Maybe the best teams do things better and faster and apply more pressure 

I remember watching Australia playing England in a 4N final at Elland Road - maybe 2011. My first thought was Australia are constantly offside but I watched their defence more closely and it was just that they were fast getting up, but also fast getting back. Also, they were cohesive so even if they were pushing the line they were doing it at speed and together.

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9 hours ago, TheFlash said:

I think they do.

You only need to listen to the language used towards the different teams in Challenge Cup ties. If it is a SuperLeague team, you can hear a certain familiarity laced with tolerance... "Get square Alex", "Drop your tackle height Zak" or whatever.

When the likes of Doncaster are on, it is more like "listen number 6... I am the ref out here" etc etc. 

 

Having seen a lot of Champiosnhip games where the referee's calls have been audible, all I can say is that I'm hugely impressed by their knowledge of who ALL the players are...they seem to know the names even of the obscure debutants.

Perhaps for a ref who is in charge of a team that plays at a level he rarely officiates at it might be different, but for me overall  their knowledge of the players is quite impressive.

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  • John Drake changed the title to Refereeing (Multiple Merged Threads)

The number of threads popping up about refereeing on here is getting ridiculous now.

They all end up going down the same rabbit hole, so I've merged the latest three into this one.

No more individual threads, arguing the toss over every decision. Keep it all in here, then those who are interested can join the discussion, and those who aren't can get on with discussing other issues without having to wade through a dozen threads all on the same repetitive topic.

Thanks.

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For any Rugby League referees who may post on or read these forums.

Thanks for doing a great job and allowing us to continue watching our sport.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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3 hours ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Having seen a lot of Champiosnhip games where the referee's calls have been audible, all I can say is that I'm hugely impressed by their knowledge of who ALL the players are...they seem to know the names even of the obscure debutants.

Perhaps for a ref who is in charge of a team that plays at a level he rarely officiates at it might be different, but for me overall  their knowledge of the players is quite impressive.

I tried to use player’s names even at Amateur level. 5 minutes with the team sheet usually worked. Quite amusing when players played under false names especially if you knew their real names

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Às for the better sides- 50/50 question, I did notice this in 2017 in Castlefords favour. (Not so much these days though).

What struck me then and now is the often weak correlation between a teams discipline and the penalty count.

No, I'm not a qualified referee.

This bothers me because I want to be entertained but find myself frustrated as any game drama hemorrhages away. Even if a series of penalties are fully justified I still wonder why the other side are deemed relatively fault free.

No, I'm not saying the Ref should 'engineer' close games but at the same time killing off a game unnecessarily seems a shame. I often feel a pernicious quality to some decisions. 

I'm still not a qualified Referee, have no intention of being one, accept that it is a very difficult job, and accept that it's the players who drop balls, miss tackles etc. 

TESTICULI AD  BREXITAM.

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3 hours ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Having seen a lot of Champiosnhip games where the referee's calls have been audible, all I can say is that I'm hugely impressed by their knowledge of who ALL the players are...they seem to know the names even of the obscure debutants.

Perhaps for a ref who is in charge of a team that plays at a level he rarely officiates at it might be different, but for me overall  their knowledge of the players is quite impressive.

Fair enough. I think you have seen more of these leagues than I have. 

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4 hours ago, Magic Superbeetle said:

. Referees often have tricks to manage players as well, like standing 12m back from the play the ball, so if the defending team pinch a metre/ go fractionally too early, it doesn’t matter - we as fans often aren’t privy to a lot of these though, and just see players standing infront of the ref etc.

 

Just on this point which I think is true although hard to tell but when the are close to a pitch line you can sometimes see the ref setting defending line more than 10.

The problem for me is that gives a disadvantage to the defending team, particularly against a stronger team as your probably doing most of the defending.

Edited by redjonn
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Referees shouldn't be standing back 12m, this was dispelled as a myth more than a decade ago. If the ref is marking the defensive line they should be 10m back. 

If they stand back 12 it disadvantages those who use him as a marker. It is just a flawed concept overall. If refs stand back 12m it is because they are getting it wrong. 

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9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Referees shouldn't be standing back 12m, this was dispelled as a myth more than a decade ago. If the ref is marking the defensive line they should be 10m back. 

If they stand back 12 it disadvantages those who use him as a marker. It is just a flawed concept overall. If refs stand back 12m it is because they are getting it wrong. 

I hate it when refs do that, and allow defences to set off early into the tackle, it's a stupid advantage to a defender that's not needed. Take them 10, penalise them if they are offside.

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