AUSTRALIA 4 NATIONS

[Henson Park Old Firm]

What's CBA?

[The Hallucinating Goose]

30 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

The fact that Australia don’t really seem bothered to have England in the mix anymore should be ringing alarm bells shouldn’t it?

 

I certainly think so, I mean one of my priorities would have been getting the cancelled Ashes series rearranged and get that played because that really had a feeling of being the biggest series for a long, long time in terms of attendance and exposure but I don't think much has been said about that. 

[arcticchris]

7 minutes ago, Henson Park Old Firm said:

What's CBA?

Collective bargaining agreement/arrangement 

[Anita Bath]

58 minutes ago, arcticchris said:

Collective bargaining agreement/arrangement 

Thanks … I thought it was can’t be ars**!
 

Would certainly describe ARLs attitude to an ashes series.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

The fact that Australia don’t really seem bothered to have England in the mix anymore should be ringing alarm bells shouldn’t it?

 

Even if it does, there's not really anything England can do about it.  English RL has become so weak that it has no bargaining power with the Aussies.

[DACS]

Islanders are growing increasingly important in the NRL, with some of the game's highest profile players being Tongan/Samoan. Its right that the NRL tries to capitalise on that interest. Not least because for Tongans/Samoans at least RL is starting to look a much better bet for a career, including internationals (their RU counterparts are falling down the rankings hugely by comparison).

Fiji is harder, as it has more of an RU history and profile and virtually no RL history. That's why we'll keep seeing the likes of Radrada and Sovatabua jump to RU the first chance we get. But if Fiji can also become competitive internationally that might change as well. 

England by comparison is just seen as the home of the odd good player and a substandard league. Which it is. Its hard to see this changing until England can actually compete with Australia regularly - and actually have a genuine shot at beating them when it counts. We could play a 3-game Ashes series but does anyone genuinely think England would win a series or even compete in every game? Its hard to see us even winning a dead rubber at the moment, as we lack quality in too many positions and our players make far too many unforced errors.  

[Sports Prophet]

34 minutes ago, DACS said:

Islanders are growing increasingly important in the NRL, with some of the game's highest profile players being Tongan/Samoan. Its right that the NRL tries to capitalise on that interest. Not least because for Tongans/Samoans at least RL is starting to look a much better bet for a career, including internationals (their RU counterparts are falling down the rankings hugely by comparison).

Fiji is harder, as it has more of an RU history and profile and virtually no RL history. That's why we'll keep seeing the likes of Radrada and Sovatabua jump to RU the first chance we get. But if Fiji can also become competitive internationally that might change as well. 

England by comparison is just seen as the home of the odd good player and a substandard league. Which it is. Its hard to see this changing until England can actually compete with Australia regularly - and actually have a genuine shot at beating them when it counts. We could play a 3-game Ashes series but does anyone genuinely think England would win a series or even compete in every game? Its hard to see us even winning a dead rubber at the moment, as we lack quality in too many positions and our players make far too many unforced errors.  

The key for England @DACS is to start winning a few off field battles to improve off field standards to help improve on field chances.

[ATLANTISMAN]

7 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I certainly think so, I mean one of my priorities would have been getting the cancelled Ashes series rearranged and get that played because that really had a feeling of being the biggest series for a long, long time in terms of attendance and exposure but I don't think much has been said about that. 

This simply isn't going to happen and IMHO a few other things sadly are not going to happen ,next i wait for the RLWC 2021 accounts and the reaction to them.

[welshmagpie]

8 hours ago, Pulga said:

I want to know why nations aren't organising their own games. As someone who helps run a few nations, nobody else delegates where or when we play.

I understand there's a consideration with professional players needing to get time off but surely they can do it.

Yep that’s a very fair and valid point. However, I do believe it’s on the IRL to organise and schedule more tournaments away from the World Cup itself 

[Anita Bath]

5 hours ago, DACS said:

Islanders are growing increasingly important in the NRL, with some of the game's highest profile players being Tongan/Samoan. Its right that the NRL tries to capitalise on that interest. Not least because for Tongans/Samoans at least RL is starting to look a much better bet for a career, including internationals (their RU counterparts are falling down the rankings hugely by comparison).

Fiji is harder, as it has more of an RU history and profile and virtually no RL history. That's why we'll keep seeing the likes of Radrada and Sovatabua jump to RU the first chance we get. But if Fiji can also become competitive internationally that might change as well. 

England by comparison is just seen as the home of the odd good player and a substandard league. Which it is. Its hard to see this changing until England can actually compete with Australia regularly - and actually have a genuine shot at beating them when it counts. We could play a 3-game Ashes series but does anyone genuinely think England would win a series or even compete in every game? Its hard to see us even winning a dead rubber at the moment, as we lack quality in too many positions and our players make far too many unforced errors.  

No rugby league history?  you mean the repeat RL world cup semi finalists who, unlike samoa, were unlucky enough to face the Aussies in the semi finals each time.

Now how have they done in the IRB world cup?

 

Fijian players have graced RL since the 1960s.

[redjonn]

6 hours ago, DACS said:

Islanders are growing increasingly important in the NRL, with some of the game's highest profile players being Tongan/Samoan. Its right that the NRL tries to capitalise on that interest. Not least because for Tongans/Samoans at least RL is starting to look a much better bet for a career, including internationals (their RU counterparts are falling down the rankings hugely by comparison).

Fiji is harder, as it has more of an RU history and profile and virtually no RL history. That's why we'll keep seeing the likes of Radrada and Sovatabua jump to RU the first chance we get. But if Fiji can also become competitive internationally that might change as well. 

England by comparison is just seen as the home of the odd good player and a substandard league. Which it is. Its hard to see this changing until England can actually compete with Australia regularly - and actually have a genuine shot at beating them when it counts. We could play a 3-game Ashes series but does anyone genuinely think England would win a series or even compete in every game? Its hard to see us even winning a dead rubber at the moment, as we lack quality in too many positions and our players make far too many unforced errors.  

We may not have a league competition at the standard of the NRL but your substandard comments I think denigrates the sport here.  

As a matter of interest what are the levels of the league structures in the Pacific Island countries and NZ you mention.

Some of the best UK players go over and play in the NRL and I think we still have a reasonable elite level league.  Not sure we are so different than the countries you mention that also have their best players in the NRL.  We are of course further away which makes it a little more difficult to simply and purely become feeder league to NRL. At least whilst not to the level week in week out of the NRL at least we have a reasonable standard of competition.

[Madrileño]

17 hours ago, Pie tries said:

 

Why are the Aussies so blind to the international game……? Please don’t answer.

No Ashes, no four nations, no future planning, no rumours of events to come…

They are not blind to it.

What are you talking about??? The subject of the thread is literally about the organisation of a 4 Nations international tournament.

As a big fan of the international game, I am looking forward to this. 

[DACS]

If substandard insults then sobeit. How about SL is miles behind the NRL and everyone knows it? Pretending otherwise (or even trying not to hurt anyone's feelings) is ridiculous and stops us doing what we need to, which is improve the sport in England. 

As for Fiji, please. A few players in the 60s doesn't compare to the history of Fiji in RU. There is virtually zero buzz about them as an international team yet. The RU 7s and Super Rugby remain a massive draw for their best players. Fiji's time will come but its silly to pretend that RL is as well-placed there as Tonga or Samoa.

By contrast Samoa and Tonga have really excited the local expat communities in Australia and NZ. Here in Brisbane there were Samoan flags all over the place during the world cup and there's a genuine sense that this can be maintained (I think close to 50% of all NRL players are of islander descent, so if anyhting the pool should get bigger over time).

Their international RU teams are falling down the rankings (Tonga got beaten 102-0 by the All Blacks 2 years ago) - partly because the Wallabies and All Blacks are poaching their best players, so the opposite of what's happening in RL. This all adds up to their being the genuine possibility of displacing RU in those countries if RL plays its cards right, especially by giving players an opportunity to play for their country of Origin on a regular basis.

England are still a bit of a drawcard here, but I'd say we're probably a less safe bet financially than NZ, Tonga or Samoa for Australia. The only way that can change for the better (including Ashes series etc) is for England to stop moaning and start winning games against the Aussies.

[GeordieSaint]

28 minutes ago, DACS said:

If substandard insults then sobeit. How about SL is miles behind the NRL and everyone knows it? Pretending otherwise (or even trying not to hurt anyone's feelings) is ridiculous and stops us doing what we need to, which is improve the sport in England. 

As for Fiji, please. A few players in the 60s doesn't compare to the history of Fiji in RU. There is virtually zero buzz about them as an international team yet. The RU 7s and Super Rugby remain a massive draw for their best players. Fiji's time will come but its silly to pretend that RL is as well-placed there as Tonga or Samoa.

By contrast Samoa and Tonga have really excited the local expat communities in Australia and NZ. Here in Brisbane there were Samoan flags all over the place during the world cup and there's a genuine sense that this can be maintained (I think close to 50% of all NRL players are of islander descent, so if anyhting the pool should get bigger over time).

Their international RU teams are falling down the rankings (Tonga got beaten 102-0 by the All Blacks 2 years ago) - partly because the Wallabies and All Blacks are poaching their best players, so the opposite of what's happening in RL. This all adds up to their being the genuine possibility of displacing RU in those countries if RL plays its cards right, especially by giving players an opportunity to play for their country of Origin on a regular basis.

England are still a bit of a drawcard here, but I'd say we're probably a less safe bet financially than NZ, Tonga or Samoa for Australia. The only way that can change for the better (including Ashes series etc) is for England to stop moaning and start winning games against the Aussies.

Whilst I won’t dispute much of what you said, I will with the bottom bit. Whilst we had an opportunity to play you last year (and blew it), it’s not England that is blocking the chance to play Australia. I imagine the RFL are chomping at the bit to do so. The lack of willingness in Australia is the issue. So we can’t win games against you if we aren’t afforded the opportunity to do so. 

[JM2010]

1 hour ago, Madrileño said:

They are not blind to it.

What are you talking about??? The subject of the thread is literally about the organisation of a 4 Nations international tournament.

As a big fan of the international game, I am looking forward to this. 

I agree. As an England fan it’s disappointing that we aren’t involved but NZ, Tonga and Samoa are as strong if not stronger than England and easier to play logistics wise.

It will be a great tournament to watch.

As someone mentioned earlier we should try and get PNG and Fiji over to play against England, France and Wales. Could even include Lebanon. 

At least we would then have fixtures for England and would provide a boost for the other nations 

[graveyard johnny]

17 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

The fact that Australia don’t really seem bothered to have England in the mix anymore should be ringing alarm bells shouldn’t it?

 

Australia are obviously scared after ST Helens  went over there and took the wcc - to play second fiddle on the international stage as well as the club stage would be just too much  to bare for them

Edited March 28, 2023 by graveyard johnny

[Jughead]

2 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I agree. As an England fan it’s disappointing that we aren’t involved but NZ, Tonga and Samoa are as strong if not stronger than England and easier to play logistics wise.

It will be a great tournament to watch.

As someone mentioned earlier we should try and get PNG and Fiji over to play against England, France and Wales. Could even include Lebanon. 

At least we would then have fixtures for England and would provide a boost for the other nations 

The Southern Hemisphere 4N appears to be driven by the potential profitability of it, is there any genuine profitability in any of Papua New Guinea, Lebanon and Fiji playing in England? Yes, those who support England and those who like international RL in England get games but ultimately, is it going to make money?

[GeordieSaint]

29 minutes ago, Jughead said:

The Southern Hemisphere 4N appears to be driven by the potential profitability of it, is there any genuine profitability in any of Papua New Guinea, Lebanon and Fiji playing in England? Yes, those who support England and those who like international RL in England get games but ultimately, is it going to make money?

The Four Nations played in 25k stadia (not always filled) I believed turned a profit. And ticket prices weren’t particularly high either. So a similar ambition should be doable for the less ‘sexy’ teams.

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

The Four Nations played in 25k stadia (not always filled) I believed turned a profit. And ticket prices weren’t particularly high either. So a similar ambition should be doable for the less ‘sexy’ teams.

Absolutely. And games in Wales, France and heck maybe Ireland and Scotland too to ease the pressure on England's traditional ticket base.

[Balmainboy]

Would rather a 6 nations in SH with PNG + Fiji but this would still be great. 

Re: England - don't think it's realistic that SH + NH teams play against each other every year. With a world cup every 4 years - should aim for tour/4 nations where either England go south or SH teams go north in the middle of the 4 year cycle so they play every second year. 

[Anita Bath]

4 hours ago, DACS said:

If substandard insults then sobeit. How about SL is miles behind the NRL and everyone knows it? Pretending otherwise (or even trying not to hurt anyone's feelings) is ridiculous and stops us doing what we need to, which is improve the sport in England. 

As for Fiji, please. A few players in the 60s doesn't compare to the history of Fiji in RU. There is virtually zero buzz about them as an international team yet. The RU 7s and Super Rugby remain a massive draw for their best players. Fiji's time will come but its silly to pretend that RL is as well-placed there as Tonga or Samoa.

By contrast Samoa and Tonga have really excited the local expat communities in Australia and NZ. Here in Brisbane there were Samoan flags all over the place during the world cup and there's a genuine sense that this can be maintained (I think close to 50% of all NRL players are of islander descent, so if anyhting the pool should get bigger over time).

Their international RU teams are falling down the rankings (Tonga got beaten 102-0 by the All Blacks 2 years ago) - partly because the Wallabies and All Blacks are poaching their best players, so the opposite of what's happening in RL. This all adds up to their being the genuine possibility of displacing RU in those countries if RL plays its cards right, especially by giving players an opportunity to play for their country of Origin on a regular basis.

England are still a bit of a drawcard here, but I'd say we're probably a less safe bet financially than NZ, Tonga or Samoa for Australia. The only way that can change for the better (including Ashes series etc) is for England to stop moaning and start winning games against the Aussies.

We havent lost to the Aussies for 6 years,  aside from WW2 years thats an unprecedented unbeaten streak!

Samoa, Tonga, Fiji and NZ have all been beaten by them in that period. Only PNG have a longer unbeaten streak against them!

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely. And games in Wales, France and heck maybe Ireland and Scotland too to ease the pressure on England's traditional ticket base.

What? Put on fun events in non traditional areas to generate both cash and new supporters?

It'll never catch on.

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

What? Put on fun events in non traditional areas to generate both cash and new supporters?

It'll never catch on.

In my first year of Uni I was on the train to Bristol, sat opposite a couple of older fellas who were Northampton RU fans (in jerseys) who were going to Bath for their league game. They had 2016 Four Nations keep cups in their possession and curiosity got the better of me so I had to ask.

They had got tickets for the game through their rugby (U) club. Loved it. Didn't mind the cold of Bonfire night. Had agreed to see England the next time they were in the South (hasn't happened yet iirc). Didn't care that Scotland had never played England, thought they were good and it was great entertainment different from the norm and obviously they can't get tickets at Twickenham.

Obviously all this is terrible and shouldn't be replicated.

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, Balmainboy said:

Re: England - don't think it's realistic that SH + NH teams play against each other every year. With a world cup every 4 years - should aim for tour/4 nations where either England go south or SH teams go north in the middle of the 4 year cycle so they play every second year. 

It doesn't have to be the same nations travelling every year though.

If we go south every two or three years, there's a world cup every four years.

That means that Aus, NZ, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, PNG could take it in turns to come up here for a test series in other years and would each only have to come once in about 10 years.

There are now plenty of countries who are a decent standard, we don't need Aus or NZ every time - A 4 or 5 nations tournament in the SH still leaves someone to tour here.

I'm hoping we get at least one SH country here in autumn, even if there is a 4 nations comp down there.

Other sports have NH and SH countries playing each other every year. Why not us?

Edited March 28, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Pie tries]

6 hours ago, Madrileño said:

They are not blind to it.

What are you talking about??? The subject of the thread is literally about the organisation of a 4 Nations international tournament.

As a big fan of the international game, I am looking forward to this. 

When is England’s next dig at the Aussies…?