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Mr Plow

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How do we make them more competitive. On paper they should be, plenty of teams in their heartlands, 2 pro teams in the British league system, play regularly, used to be good. Where did it all go wrong for them?

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4 minutes ago, ghost crayfish said:

I think they should be throwing everything they've got at Trent Robinson to be their national team coach. 

and the general overseeing of French rugby league

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Catalans Dragons had four French born players in their starting XIII in their previous game, vs Cas, with three more on the bench. Before that, in their only other game, vs Wakefield, five Frenchmen started and a further three were on the bench. You’re looking at less than half a matchday squad made up of Frenchmen fourteen years into Catalans’ spell in Super League. But can you blame them?

They as a club are in Super League to fulfil their own ambitions, not those of the French National team, so they’re not going to turn away English and Antipodean players, are they but if they do that then where are these French lads going to get the chance to play? It’s a vicious cycle that shows no sign of ending and even a promotion of Toulouse Olympique would do little, if anything, to break this cycle, they’d no doubt end up on the same cycle the Dragons are on. And if Toulouse were to come up, would they pick French players over others if survival is in question? Of course not. 

Depending in how Super League views expansion in France, the UK and elsewhere probably has some (a very small) bearing on the structure going into negotiations over the new TV deal, as there’s an argument that development of teams and homegrown players can be hampered by the threat of relegation and the subsequent issues that come with it.

The French Federation seems to be by people as competent as some at The RFL, too, which is not going to help. 

Edited by Hela Wigmen
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51 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

How do we make them more competitive. On paper they should be, plenty of teams in their heartlands, 2 pro teams in the British league system, play regularly, used to be good. Where did it all go wrong for them?

It’s not how do we make them more competitive, it’s how do they make themselves more competitive. 

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Play games at home, get catalans president see importance of test footy. Most difficult question to answer. Get ffr13 be more professional in test camps. 

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1 French player per team is cap-exempt.

Same rule for all teams.  

If a team can pay more, they get the best French guy.  If a team cannot pay much, they can scout harder and find a good French prospect.  (Admittedly this could be a problem, as Rugby League World has identified that some clubs will not even scout in the Midlands....)

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30 minutes ago, Celt said:

1 French player per team is cap-exempt.

Same rule for all teams.  

If a team can pay more, they get the best French guy.  If a team cannot pay much, they can scout harder and find a good French prospect.  (Admittedly this could be a problem, as Rugby League World has identified that some clubs will not even scout in the Midlands....)

A good idea, but is it for the non French clubs to save the French game? They would have been much better off requiring Catalans to filed a minimum number of French players as a condition of playing in our comp, particularly as, say they do nothing for TV rights. If Guasch’s dream depended on playing French players, the likes of Joel T and Tierney would be nowhere near the club... 

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In a game with 10 metre defensive lines and repeated interchange, a team must have huge forwards to compete at the top of international RL. It's no accident that teams in the Pacific region are increasingly the top international teams. Sure, you need good backs too, but without the forwards going forward they will be largely ineffective. 

While England had Sam Burgess leading the pack, they were competitive. He's gone and England are starting to struggle against the Pacific teams. England will no longer be the force they were and if they can't fully compete with the best of the Southern Hemisphere, what hope do France and any other Northern Hemisphere nation got? 

I think the balance of the game has swung more than ever in favour of big, mobile forwards. Something needs to change if RL is to redress that. 

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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Now that toulouse are really pushing for promotion this year, how many French players in their starting line up? 

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3 hours ago, Celt said:

1 French player per team is cap-exempt.

Same rule for all teams.  

If a team can pay more, they get the best French guy.  If a team cannot pay much, they can scout harder and find a good French prospect.  (Admittedly this could be a problem, as Rugby League World has identified that some clubs will not even scout in the Midlands....)

Nice idea but most players would just end up in the reserves or DR 

The problem is the talent pool isn’t large enough. I’m sure Catalans would like to play more French players but they’re just not good enough and the drop from SL to Elite 1 is too large so the fringe players aren’t developing sufficiently 

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1 hour ago, RayCee said:

In a game with 10 metre defensive lines and repeated interchange, a team must have huge forwards to compete at the top of international RL. It's no accident that teams in the Pacific region are increasingly the top international teams. Sure, you need good backs too, but without the forwards going forward they will be largely ineffective. 

While England had Sam Burgess leading the pack, they were competitive. He's gone and England are starting to struggle against the Pacific teams. England will no longer be the force they were and if they can't fully compete with the best of the Southern Hemisphere, what hope do France and any other Northern Hemisphere nation got? 

I think the balance of the game has swung more than ever in favour of big, mobile forwards. Something needs to change if RL is to redress that. 

I’ve often complained about the two rugby codes becoming too attritional, too brutish, too forward based, with players bigger than ever, but you have been much more specific about it. To me it’s killing both as a spectacle. I watch more old games of both than current ones, and the contrast between the two eras (mid 90s to now) is stark. Free flowing, attacking skilful play has gone out the window.

You mentioned France in RL. In RU, since this bulking up and attritional, forward dominated game really kicked in, France have collapsed. The flair they were associated with that brought them so much success, that’s been wiped out, as bigger, more physical teams bulldozed through them. The flair has been beat out of them, and now to compete they brought in Shaun Edwards, a man to bring them grit, and really put the final nail in the coffin as an attractive team to watch. Wales went down the same road over a decade ago when Edwards and Gatland came in, ditching exciting running RU Wales were known for (that now saw them frequently lose as they were overpowered) for the attritional game in order to be competitive. The result of all this attritional play in RU has meant no individuals stand out anymore, the backs get fed scraps, and when they do get the ball they get bulldozed over. Additionally, backs are now as big as what forwards used to be, with an emphasis on physicality over skill. Previously the benchmark, the French backs are now hopeless with the ball. They choose mammoth physical specimens regardless of whether they can throw the ball around. Bastereaud (spelling?), an 18 stone brute of a centre, and equally as limited with the ball. From Sella to that is some change, and indicative of the sport as a whole. With so much in common and movement of personnel (coaches/players) between the codes, RL has also gone through this transition. The 2017 RLWC final, an 80 minute arm wrestle, you watch that, and then you watch the ‘90s Challenge Cup finals, it’s two different sports.

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48 minutes ago, barnyia said:

Now that toulouse are really pushing for promotion this year, how many French players in their starting line up? 

5 vs Sheffield in their last game. 

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3 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

A good idea, but is it for the non French clubs to save the French game? They would have been much better off requiring Catalans to filed a minimum number of French players as a condition of playing in our comp, particularly as, say they do nothing for TV rights. If Guasch’s dream depended on playing French players, the likes of Joel T and Tierney would be nowhere near the club... 

We might as well then put a minimum quota of local players on every club.

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I'm not sure how the OP thinks that France should be competitive? They have 1 team in the second best league in the world, which uses many English and Aussie players to avoid relegation and secure their future. They then have another team in the 5th(?) best league in the world who are using English and Aussie players to progress to the top league and secure their future. They have much less access to heritage players than the Pacific Islands and non-English GB nations (and Lebanon, Jamaica etc). The language barrier means that it is more difficult to move abroad and settle with another team or league (possibly even in Catalans teams given nationality of coaching staff and main players).

If we want to make France competitive then things can be done to help however it is incredibly unlikely that this will be welcomed by the majority of fans or even administrators. Protection from relegation, tightening of heritage rules, french player cap allowances, more international fixtures, targeted funding and no doubt many more would all have an effect on their future but rightly or wrongly won't happen.

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1 hour ago, DC77 said:

I’ve often complained about the two rugby codes becoming too attritional, too brutish, too forward based, with players bigger than ever, but you have been much more specific about it. To me it’s killing both as a spectacle. I watch more old games of both than current ones, and the contrast between the two eras (mid 90s to now) is stark. Free flowing, attacking skilful play has gone out the window.

You mentioned France in RL. In RU, since this bulking up and attritional, forward dominated game really kicked in, France have collapsed. The flair they were associated with that brought them so much success, that’s been wiped out, as bigger, more physical teams bulldozed through them. The flair has been beat out of them, and now to compete they brought in Shaun Edwards, a man to bring them grit, and really put the final nail in the coffin as an attractive team to watch. Wales went down the same road over a decade ago when Edwards and Gatland came in, ditching exciting running RU Wales were known for (that now saw them frequently lose as they were overpowered) for the attritional game in order to be competitive. The result of all this attritional play in RU has meant no individuals stand out anymore, the backs get fed scraps, and when they do get the ball they get bulldozed over. Additionally, backs are now as big as what forwards used to be, with an emphasis on physicality over skill. Previously the benchmark, the French backs are now hopeless with the ball. They choose mammoth physical specimens regardless of whether they can throw the ball around. Bastereaud (spelling?), an 18 stone brute of a centre, and equally as limited with the ball. From Sella to that is some change, and indicative of the sport as a whole. With so much in common and movement of personnel (coaches/players) between the codes, RL has also gone through this transition. The 2017 RLWC final, an 80 minute arm wrestle, you watch that, and then you watch the ‘90s Challenge Cup finals, it’s two different sports.

Please stop with ANY union comparison on this forum. That’s a nice and polite request, we’ll simply delete posts in future.

We’ve a perfectly good cess pit of a cross-code forum where you can express your perversions to your heart’s content. This is not it, there’s youngsters and vulnerable people reading this forum who do not deserve to be exposed to such depravity.

Repeat offences will see you forced to watch this year’s Italy v Scotland or Scotland v England on repeat until next year’s six nations.

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56 minutes ago, DC77 said:

..too attritional, too brutish, too forward based, with players bigger than ever, but you have been much more specific about it. To me it’s killing both as a spectacle. I watch more old games, and the contrast between the two eras (mid 90s to now) is stark. Free flowing, attacking skilful play has gone out the window....

I thought I was reasonably specific. 

I have watched games back in the 50's and the ball was like a hot potato. There was plenty of lateral movement instead of today's middle third, five carries and kick. I preferred it to the modern game. To get back to that, the rules would need some major changes.

When RL first formed, the code was happy to make major changes and many since then too. However, like all human endeavour, eventually institutions become change and risk averse. Therefore, the game will stay much as it is and unless international teams can find huge forwards from somewhere, they will get run over by the few that have them. 


My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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There's still plenty of advantages for small / light Wingers as long as they are super fast and can catch a ball. Scrum halves and Stand Offs can still be very small as long as they can think, kick in general play, execute 'moves' (special set plays well practiced in training) and handle a ball very well. 

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11 hours ago, Damien said:

Toulouse and Catalans in Super League would be a good start.

More jobs for Brit and Southern Hemisphere player's to fill then, France cannot supply enough player's for one SL team never mind two, the rallying call back in the mid 00's was how a team in France would entice the local's to play and improve the national team no end, but that didn't happen, simply because the French clubs are no different to any other clubs in that they are autonomous and want to do the best for their team and fans, the logical answer is they go overseas to source their player's, and it will continue to be that way even moreso with the inclusion of TO in SL, just look how many 'foriegners' they employ in the Championship that is simply because they have exhausted the supply of fit for purpose Frenchmen.

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11 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Catalans Dragons had four French born players in their starting XIII in their previous game, vs Cas, with three more on the bench. Before that, in their only other game, vs Wakefield, five Frenchmen started and a further three were on the bench. You’re looking at less than half a matchday squad made up of Frenchmen fourteen years into Catalans’ spell in Super League. But can you blame them?

They as a club are in Super League to fulfil their own ambitions, not those of the French National team, so they’re not going to turn away English and Antipodean players, are they but if they do that then where are these French lads going to get the chance to play? It’s a vicious cycle that shows no sign of ending and even a promotion of Toulouse Olympique would do little, if anything, to break this cycle, they’d no doubt end up on the same cycle the Dragons are on. And if Toulouse were to come up, would they pick French players over others if survival is in question? Of course not. 

Depending in how Super League views expansion in France, the UK and elsewhere probably has some (a very small) bearing on the structure going into negotiations over the new TV deal, as there’s an argument that development of teams and homegrown players can be hampered by the threat of relegation and the subsequent issues that come with it.

The French Federation seems to be by people as competent as some at The RFL, too, which is not going to help. 

I hadn't read this when I posted my reply to Damien, I think we are very much on the same thought process on this subject, But and it is a big but, France are in a position with their infrastructure of the game that North America will not achieve in the next 25-30 years, it really is up to the French Authorities if they are serious about the sport to put in some positive thought processes and courses of action to improve upon what they already have, not sitting back and hope that it just drops in their laps as it appears they have been doing for a good number of years.

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4 hours ago, RayCee said:

In a game with 10 metre defensive lines and repeated interchange, a team must have huge forwards to compete at the top of international RL. It's no accident that teams in the Pacific region are increasingly the top international teams. Sure, you need good backs too, but without the forwards going forward they will be largely ineffective. 

While England had Sam Burgess leading the pack, they were competitive. He's gone and England are starting to struggle against the Pacific teams. England will no longer be the force they were and if they can't fully compete with the best of the Southern Hemisphere, what hope do France and any other Northern Hemisphere nation got? 

I think the balance of the game has swung more than ever in favour of big, mobile forwards. Something needs to change if RL is to redress that. 

This is all a little OTT - England's go forward was not solely based on Sam Burgess. We had one shambolic series trying to revive the GB team - nothing more nothing less. This isn't the beginning of a dark period for England. 

France have all the potential in the world - we talk about expansion in new areas but we have the French who are ready made to take the next step to tier 1 and yet some say 'leave them too it, it's their problem' - We should be doing everything we can to encourage their growth. A lot of their problems seem internal, with players not putting themselves forward for selection. If they could put out their strongest team on a regular basis I'd out them just behind the top 4 sides. 

Edited by hunsletgreenandgold
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2 hours ago, glossop saint said:

Protection from relegation, tightening of heritage rules, french player cap allowances, more international fixtures, targeted funding and no doubt many more would all have an effect on their future but rightly or wrongly won't happen.

And neither should it.

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