IMG - Vote on Wednesday

[Dunbar]

Just now, Spidey said:

Nope. But any B’s in SL will be in over B’s in the championship 

Do you mean it will be engineered so that is the outcome?

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Do you mean it will be engineered so that is the outcome?

I expect there’ll be a lot more B’s than places available, and more than likely incumbents will get preference 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Do you mean it will be engineered so that is the outcome?

I think that is a challenge of having arbitrary criteria - because comparing across divisions, the higher division clubs will benefit from things like bigger crowds, commercial income, youth setups, higher revenue etc. So it would be crazy if a lower division club outscored an SL club. 

And this is where the criteria need to really mean something imo. Guaranteed P&R and never settibg a high enough bar was the problem last time, and we have to avoid making the same mistakes again. 

[Just Browny]

19 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Surprised Fev are on board, that´s a good sign for this happening. 

Leigh have helped roll the pitch for this decision by basically buying in an unbeatable squad and showing up the fallacy of 'earning it on the pitch'.

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think that is a challenge of having arbitrary criteria - because comparing across divisions, the higher division clubs will benefit from things like bigger crowds, commercial income, youth setups, higher revenue etc. So it would be crazy if a lower division club outscored an SL club. 

And this is where the criteria need to really mean something imo. Guaranteed P&R and never settibg a high enough bar was the problem last time, and we have to avoid making the same mistakes again. 

As long as there are genuine minimum standards for our elite division that’s fine by me. I’d be annoyed if we accept simply promises from the first round of applications 

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I expect there’ll be a lot more B’s than places available, and more than likely incumbents will get preference 

Well, that all comes down to how the criteria are laid out and how absolute the measures are.  If there is a strict scoring and weighting of criteria then the B's will be ordered and this will be irrespective of incumbency. 

If it is more subjective then maybe it will favour the incumbents butbl surely that level if subjectivity will be much more controversial and open to criticism. 

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Leigh have helped roll the pitch for this decision by basically buying in an unbeatable squad and showing up the fallacy of 'earning it on the pitch'.

That's harsh.  Leigh have invested in the squad and won games.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Well, that all comes down to how the criteria are laid out and how absolute the measures are.  If there is a strict scoring and weighting of criteria then the B's will be ordered and this will be irrespective of incumbency. 

If it is more subjective then maybe it will favour the incumbents butbl surely that level if subjectivity will be much more controversial and open to criticism. 

All I said is I’d be surprised if it’s not the incumbents. I’m not expecting some big shake up initially, which may have to potential of not actually making a difference 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

As long as there are genuine minimum standards for our elite division that’s fine by me. I’d be annoyed if we accept simply promises from the first round of applications 

Minimum standards are a different thing to be fair. There may be some in place, and it may mean that you won't even get a B without certain things, but I'm not sure that has been claimed. 

[Spidey]

Just now, Dave T said:

Minimum standards are a different thing to be fair. There may be some in place, and it may mean that you won't even get a B without certain things, but I'm not sure that has been claimed. 

Yup. Devil is in the detail, i suppose when things come out we’ll have a better idea. The cynic in me doesn’t see anything too different to what’s been done before, and in practice lower teams replacing SL teams will probably still be settled on the field, as has been stated it’s improbably a Champ club could outscore an incumbent any other way (guessing on the criteria of course)

[EastLondonMike]

I’ve only read up to page 9 of the thread, then skipped ahead. Been in meetings all afternoon, so missed the whole thing!

I quite like the sound of what’s been proposed and is actually quite similar to something I suggested some time ago in one of the many many threads on PR Vs Licensing. Not that I’m claiming anything .

I’ve always liked the idea of having licensing, but a system that allows anyone to be promoted at any stage, provided they show ambition and tick the right boxes.

I guess it depends on the criteria but there is also a possibility that some SL clubs might only attain a C grade.. which would make things interesting.

I do also like the idea around centralisation of a number of things, incl merchandise and marketing. I’d also hazard a guess and say the cap on overseas teams featuring would only be a short term thing.

I’m sure opinion will be split, but personally I’m ok with what I’ve heard so far.

 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

47 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

They don't expect to get a full division of category A sides from the off. Literally one of the first things they said.

My point is we are no where near having even half a dozen stand out clubs. Forget about whether 7,000 fans in a dump is better or worse than 4,500 in a decent stadium. If we go down this line keep it simple. Tell them if they average 10,000 fans a game over the previous season then they are class A this year, if not then they are not and are relegation possibles. Since we only have about four clubs who meet the criteria and none of them, well maybe Hull excepted look likely to finish bottom in the immediate future then the problem is solved.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Yup. Devil is in the detail, i suppose when things come out we’ll have a better idea. The cynic in me doesn’t see anything too different to what’s been done before, and in practice lower teams replacing SL teams will probably still be settled on the field, as has been stated it’s improbably a Champ club could outscore an incumbent any other way (guessing on the criteria of course)

I think that is the million dollar question that needs answering. How will replacement take place? 

Because that is what was problematic last time, and that is the bit that hasn't been explained this time. 

Because in reality, the answer should probably be that there will be very limited replacement happening. If the whole point was to be licensing and allow for genuine long term improvement, then we should probably only be bringing new teams, losing old teams as regularly as the likes of NFL or the NRL does. 

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

My point is we are no where near having even half a dozen stand out clubs. Forget about whether 7,000 fans in a dump is better or worse than 4,500 in a decent stadium. If we go down this line keep it simple. Tell them if they average 10,000 fans a game over the previous season then they are class A this year, if not then they are not and are relegation possibles. Since we only have about four clubs who meet the criteria and none of them, well maybe Hull excepted look likely to finish bottom in the immediate future then the problem is solved.

So we shouldn’t even have the half baked criteria from the last round and should base it all on average attendance?

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think that is the million dollar question that needs answering. How will replacement take place? 

Because that is what was problematic last time, and that is the bit that hasn't been explained this time. 

Because in reality, the answer should probably be that there will be very limited replacement happening. If the whole point was to be licensing and allow for genuine long term improvement, then we should probably only be bringing new teams, losing old teams as regularly as the likes of NFL or the NRL does. 

Seriously, I cannot stress this enough, have a look at the EuroLeague basketball.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

Just now, gingerjon said:

So we shouldn’t even have the half baked criteria from the last round and should base it all on average attendance?

It's usually a pretty good guide to the size of a club. 

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

My point is we are no where near having even half a dozen stand out clubs. Forget about whether 7,000 fans in a dump is better or worse than 4,500 in a decent stadium. If we go down this line keep it simple. Tell them if they average 10,000 fans a game over the previous season then they are class A this year, if not then they are not and are relegation possibles. Since we only have about four clubs who meet the criteria and none of them, well maybe Hull excepted look likely to finish bottom in the immediate future then the problem is solved.

I'd hate this approach to be honest and there should be a lot more to it than average attendances. I'm certain that incentivising free tickets and cheap tickets is a poor business model and is one SL shouldn't encourage.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Damien

[Just Browny]

22 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

That's harsh.  Leigh have invested in the squad and won games.

I don't think it is harsh at all, they have played by the rules and had an owner who has put up the money. But it has underlined to the others that just having an honest set of hard working lads won't be enough, they either have to find their own benefactor or they are stuck where they are. 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Seriously, I cannot stress this enough, have a look at the EuroLeague basketball.

Can't you just do the work for us? 

[Gomersall]

10 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Seriously, I cannot stress this enough, have a look at the EuroLeague basketball.

Albeit from Wiki.

 

In November 2015, Euroleague Basketball and IMG agreed on 10-year joint venture. Both Euroleague Basketball and IMG will manage the commercial operation, and the management of all global rights covering both media and marketing.^[6] The deal was worth €630 million guaranteed over 10 years, with projected revenues reaching €900 million.^[7] Along with the deal the league changed into a true league format, with 16 teams playing each other team in the regular season followed by the playoffs. The A-licensed club were assured of participation for the following ten years in the new format. After the new format of the EuroLeague and FIBA implementing national team windows, a conflict between the two organizations emerged. EuroLeague has been criticised by FIBA as well as several national federations for creating a 'closed league' and ignoring the principle of meritocracy. In July 2019, EuroLeague announced that from the 2019–20 season there will be no direct access to the league through domestic leagues anymore.^[8]

[Spidey]

Just now, Dave T said:

Can't you just do the work for us? 

The remaining 6 EuroLeague places are held by 6 associated clubs that have annual licences, of which one has two-year wild card, three have one-year wild-cards and two are the finalists of the previous season's 2nd-tier European competition, the EuroCup. From the 2020/21 season, however, if the better of the two teams from the EuroCup makes it to the playoffs, it keeps the place for the following year.^[14]
 

^{Got this from wiki}

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Can't you just do the work for us? 

What, again?

[Gomersall]

2 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

I don't think it is harsh at all, they have played by the rules and had an owner who has put up the money. But it has underlined to the others that just having an honest set of hard working lads won't be enough, they either have to find their own benefactor or they are stuck where they are. 

So the same rules as the majority of major pro sports leagues?

[gingerjon]

Just now, Spidey said:

The remaining 6 EuroLeague places are held by 6 associated clubs that have annual licences, of which one has two-year wild card, three have one-year wild-cards and two are the finalists of the previous season's 2nd-tier European competition, the EuroCup. From the 2020/21 season, however, if the better of the two teams from the EuroCup makes it to the playoffs, it keeps the place for the following year.^[14]
 

^{Got this from wiki}

It is pretty straightforward once you step back and look at a few seasons in a go 

[Just Browny]

Just now, Gomersall said:

So the same rules as the majority of major pro sports leagues?

I don't know what point you're making.