England vs Samoa Series

[Click]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

The last one down under was 32 years ago and there have been a grand total of five in the past fifty years.

Let's wait and see until after the 2025 tour before deciding if people really do like them.

Yeah, I can't remember one in my lifetime, but if we had some idea on dates/venues for the next one I would be looking at potential costs.

[Gav Wilson]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The last one down under was 32 years ago and there have been a grand total of five in the past fifty years.

Let's wait and see until after the 2025 tour before deciding if people really do like them.

Be interesting to see how important the Ashes become if England somehow win it... 

[dkw]

16 hours ago, Just Browny said:

I dunno, the Scots (in Workington and Newcastle) seemed to take him to their heart.

He was very passionate about the Scottish team when up in Workington, I guarantee that. Also the Scottish fans loved him, he was the lead player in that squad.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

The last one down under was 32 years ago and there have been a grand total of five in the past fifty years.

Let's wait and see until after the 2025 tour before deciding if people really do like them.

We have enough evidence from recent history that people like England games at the top level. Fans have travelled to Oz for World Cups and Four Nations, and the Ashes arranged for here was looked forward to.

It's not really controversial to believe that Eng/GB playing Down Under is likely to be attractive to people. My preference is always 4N (or grow to 6 as planned), but it's not a stretch to believe that Eng/GB going Down Under to play Aus, NZ and PNG is attractive.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

People do like Ashes tours. That's what that was meant to be, until the Aussies pulled out of staging one (it was also one of their proposals). Bit of a common theme.

The only downside to that idea of touring was mucking about with GB vs England. The big issue with it was the Aussies. 

Of course people do like Ashes tours, not all the time, and not exclusively. The irony is that since these proposals were made the Kangaroos haven't toured at all.

I won't change from my view that the RFL should have seen this coming and planned better for alternatives, building up fixtures and opponents with potential. When the Aussies started asking for fallow years this became an imperative, when they showed in Denver that they could control the Kiwis it became a downright necessity, and when they didn't even want to play GB it became a joke. 

Nevertheless, it's us that are left high and dry.

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We have enough evidence from recent history that people like England games at the top level. Fans have travelled to Oz for World Cups and Four Nations, and the Ashes arranged for here was looked forward to.

It's not really controversial to believe that Eng/GB playing Down Under is likely to be attractive to people. My preference is always 4N (or grow to 6 as planned), but it's not a stretch to believe that Eng/GB going Down Under to play Aus, NZ and PNG is attractive.

I'm not saying it's controversial to think it will be warmly received, popular on here (etc). But genuinely popular? Thousands heading out to Australia popular - as opposed to hundreds? More popular with the Australian audience than the current Pacific Championships?

That's the bit I'm not 100% convinced by at this stage. But we have to actually play it first to know either way.

 

[Damien]

18 minutes ago, RP London said:

That is exactly the problem IMHO its everything around it.. 

I went to England v Tonga at Huddersfield last year with my son... He thought the whole atmosphere for an international was appalling. The game was good but there was nothing to make it stand out from a Normal game. We go to the challenge cup final no matter who is on, we go to Tottenham matches from Sheffield because (for reasons best known to him) that's who he supports.. so I don't mind putting my hand in my pocket or travelling. But he is not wanting to go to a Samoa game this year because the event is bobbins, we'll watch on TV but without him being fussed I'm not really either!

I think we desperately need Australia to tour as a big bang reset like the cancelled 2020 Ashes would have been.

We need that buzz and big stadium vibe to get things going and sell England matches and the international game again. I think matches against Tonga, Samoa etc can be elevated on the back of that but at the moment we are stuck in a rut and I don't think the game has the tools to change that. Neither do I think the interest is there with the current approach beyond what we are seeing.

[Click]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think we desperately need Australia to tour as a big bang reset like the cancelled 2020 Ashes would have been.

We need that buzz and big stadium vibe to get things going and sell England matches and the international game again. I think matches against Tonga, Samoa etc can be elevated on the back of that but at the moment we are stuck in a rut and I don't think the game has the tools to change that. Neither do I think the interest is there with the current approach beyond what we are seeing.

I'm looking forward to Eng-Aus at the LSV in 3/4 years time.

[GeordieSaint]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

Yeah sure. That's not what I was referring to though. I was talking about the organising of all the pre-match events and putting stuff on for fans. I'm not sure if there would be anything if Wigan wasn't doing it.

Ah right. I do agree. 

I’ve not bothered this year. First time in years I haven’t gone to at least one of the home internationals. Last year sucked the life out of me, on the back of a disappointing WC. 

[Just Browny]

Following usual RL patterns, the Ashes Tour (if it happens) will probably have four games in this sort of sequence: Townsville-Sydney-Brisbane-Melbourne. Confirmed about three weeks before.

[Archie Gordon]

1 minute ago, Just Browny said:

Following usual RL patterns, the Ashes Tour (if it happens) will probably have four games in this sort of sequence: Townsville-Sydney-Brisbane-Melbourne. Confirmed about three weeks before.

I think someone left someone else an answerphone message a month or so ago and nobody now remembers whose court the ball is in. I think that's the protocol.

[Dunbar]

49 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The last one down under was 32 years ago and there have been a grand total of five in the past fifty years.

Let's wait and see until after the 2025 tour before deciding if people really do like them.

Seriously, let's wait to see if people will enjoy seeing the England Rugby League team tour Australia and play a 3 test series between England and Australia?

Shall we also wait and see where bears poo and what denomination the pope is.

[Dunbar]

49 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The last one down under was 32 years ago and there have been a grand total of five in the past fifty years.

Let's wait and see until after the 2025 tour before deciding if people really do like them.

Seriously, let's wait to see if people will enjoy seeing the England Rugby League team tour Australia and play a 3 test series between England and Australia?

Shall we also wait and see where bears poo and what denomination the pope is.

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Seriously, let's wait to see if people will enjoy seeing the England Rugby League team tour Australia and play a 3 test series between England and Australia?

Yes.

I'd prefer a Four Nations over an Ashes series literally any day of the week, for example.

The metrics are: numbers travelling, attendances down under, income and interest versus Pacific Championships and competitiveness.

It's not straightforward just because it's your preferred option - hence why we're into the fourth decade without one.

[WN83]

After a week of being miffed about the ticket sales, the incompetence shown by the RFL on a daily basis and so on, I'm now just pretty excited to watch the rugby on the field. Guess the crowd will be around that 15,000 mark, which frankly is not good enough but then I watch loads of international sport, such as the recent England tour to Pakistan in the cricket, where there are 3 men and a dog in the ground and it doesn't take away from the action on the field and it doesn't feel like they get too eat up about it. That doesn't give Rugby League a free pass and the whole sport needs to do better but the games here now and I'd rather be moaning about a game that is on then not having any at all. It should be a good game and hopefully one which helps build interest for the second test. 

Glass half full for the day and back to moaning tomorrow (or maybe tonight if we get beat)

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yes.

I'd prefer a Four Nations over an Ashes series literally any day of the week, for example.

The metrics are: numbers travelling, attendances down under, income and interest versus Pacific Championships and competitiveness.

It's not straightforward just because it's your preferred option - hence why we're into the fourth decade without one.

I'm not talking about my preferred option, I am talking about the culture of the entire sport and the prestige of England Australia as both a sporting and a Rugby League contest.

[RP London]

28 minutes ago, WN83 said:

After a week of being miffed about the ticket sales, the incompetence shown by the RFL on a daily basis and so on, I'm now just pretty excited to watch the rugby on the field. Guess the crowd will be around that 15,000 mark, which frankly is not good enough but then I watch loads of international sport, such as the recent England tour to Pakistan in the cricket, where there are 3 men and a dog in the ground and it doesn't take away from the action on the field and it doesn't feel like they get too eat up about it. That doesn't give Rugby League a free pass and the whole sport needs to do better but the games here now and I'd rather be moaning about a game that is on then not having any at all. It should be a good game and hopefully one which helps build interest for the second test. 

Glass half full for the day and back to moaning tomorrow (or maybe tonight if we get beat)

While I get your point.. to say world cricket isn't getting eaten up by the none crowds at test matches would be wrong... There is genuine fear for the future of test cricket outside of England, Aus, India and maybe South Africa

[Tommygilf]

47 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yes.

I'd prefer a Four Nations over an Ashes series literally any day of the week, for example.

The metrics are: numbers travelling, attendances down under, income and interest versus Pacific Championships and competitiveness.

It's not straightforward just because it's your preferred option - hence why we're into the fourth decade without one.

Not to mention, England/GB tours down under, those in my lifetime at least, haven't appeared to have been particularly well attended, and since they were mostly on Sky, weren't watched by loads either.

That famous win in 2006 in the Tri Nations was watched by 24k, in a 44k capacity ground, in Sydney...

Edited October 27, 2024 by Tommygilf

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Not to mention, England/GB tours down under, those in my lifetime at least, haven't appeared to have been particularly well attended, and since they were mostly on Sky, weren't watched by loads either.

That famous win in 2006 in the Tri Nations was watched by 24k, in a 44k capacity ground, in Sydney...

For it to be a success, you'd hope to be seeing dates and venues, and, indeed, easy pay tour options, already in place. Something should be on the screen for people attending today, for example.

So far, if wiki is to believe, for the (combined) six Tests next year, one is confirmed: Australia v England in Las Vegas is counting as the First Test for the women.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Of course people do like Ashes tours, not all the time, and not exclusively. The irony is that since these proposals were made the Kangaroos haven't toured at all.

I won't change from my view that the RFL should have seen this coming and planned better for alternatives, building up fixtures and opponents with potential. When the Aussies started asking for fallow years this became an imperative, when they showed in Denver that they could control the Kiwis it became a downright necessity, and when they didn't even want to play GB it became a joke. 

Nevertheless, it's us that are left high and dry.

I agree that we need other opposition, I don't agree that we could have built Home Natins into these. That's not to say we shouldn't play more games against lower ranked nations (we should stage as many internationals is as reasonable).

But we have tried to build up other opposition, there is a reason these nations have played as many games as they have, and it ain't because the Aussies have driven it. 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Click said:

I'm looking forward to Eng-Aus at the LSV in 3/4 years time.

It's interesting when some of the narrative is challenged around the RFL's approach to internationals

For every major tournament (WC's or Aus/NZ series) staged by the RFL in recent history we've staged a game in the following marquee grounds:

2022 - St James, Arsenal, Old Trafford

2020 - Spurs (cancelled)

2018 - Anfield and Elland Rd

2016 - Olympic Stadium

2015 - Olympic Stadium

2013 - Millennium, Wembley, Old Trafford

2011 - Wembley

2009 - Elland Rd

Prior to that we were more conservative, with the odd use of Elland Rd and Man City. Prior to that in the 1990's and 2000 we used Wembley, OT, Twickenham etc.

So we have consistently used marquee grounds for major tournaments. We've done plenty of ###### stuff during that 15 years, but marquee grounds have featured prominently.

 

[Dave T]

59 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Not to mention, England/GB tours down under, those in my lifetime at least, haven't appeared to have been particularly well attended, and since they were mostly on Sky, weren't watched by loads either.

That famous win in 2006 in the Tri Nations was watched by 24k, in a 44k capacity ground, in Sydney...

It would appear the Aussies current approach is right then.

Come on now. We don't need to trash absolutely everything just because things aren't done exactly to our own personal preference.

Why didn't you mention that two weeks after that Sydney game we played in front of 44k in Brisbane?

[Big Picture]

7 hours ago, iffleyox said:

England 48  v Samoa 14, Twickenham, 2017. Attendance 81,911. All there to see the pluck.

I’m sorry but the gates *are* there for South Sea island teams, because they’re competitive.

I think if you’d said ‘the English RU view is England ought to win but it’ll be a good game’ then you’d have been nearer the mark, rather than extrapolating off some unevidenced memory of some bloke on here’s mate…

I was there for that RU match, I’ll be watching the RL one later (admittedly on the BBC).

48-14 is a competitive match eh?  In fact it's a thrashing, which is precisely what the public (or rather the subset of them who know anything about Samoa) would  expect there.

I suggest that the draw there wasn't the match, but as @Jack GBpoints out it was the event/occasion, with the expectation of a big England win included.  As RL can't provide either of those, playing Samoa and having the matches be close instead of big wins for England just underscores the game's weakness in Britain.

That's why series like this one and last year's won't likely do anything to boost the game and are more likely to knock it back instead.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I'm not saying it's controversial to think it will be warmly received, popular on here (etc). But genuinely popular? Thousands heading out to Australia popular - as opposed to hundreds? More popular with the Australian audience than the current Pacific Championships?

That's the bit I'm not 100% convinced by at this stage. But we have to actually play it first to know either way.

 

I don't disagree with that. And when I say popular, it's a relative thing in terms RL popularity.

The biggest issue, that has been mentioned subsequently here is the organisation and timing of it. 

I'm not a massive fan of three test series over tournaments, and in a perfect world I'd maybe combine the two. I find the 4N a bit too quick (I much preferred two games versus each team), and we could probably do a 4N and Ashes in one.

But the wider point is that as an international team we really should be getting on a plane and playing games against the best in the world.

[Just Browny]

Maybe the RFL have played a blinder here and we will all be so exhausted from the pre-mortem of this series that we will be pleasantly surprised by the rugby when it kicks off and too knackered to moan..?

Well, at least until 2.25pm when the singer's earpiece clearly isn't working so they miss the first two lines of the national anthem.