Terrible financial news for Saints

[48C North Stand]

1 hour ago, jacksy said:

Dare I ask about Hull Fc finances.

Yes, apparently Mr Pearson has just fitted Myler with a smart meter. It's not been found to be working yet. 

[Dunbar]

17 minutes ago, M j M said:

Leeds for some reason have included a detailed analysis of their turnover which is instructive (I would have resisted including this if these were my accounts, there's no need to go into this level of detail). It shows as mentioned above the YOY reductions in central funding.

I would argue this is a good story for Leeds and they are showing that the 'business' of Leeds RL Club is showing an increased turnover primarily through their own revenue streams despite a significant reduction in central funding.

Where is the rental income coming from?

[Click]

18 minutes ago, Pete Grady said:

Going semi pro is the answer.

All the best British talent will go the NRL, our National team will then prosper and the British game will be sustainable.

Not sure if you are actually being serious or not ..

[Worzel]

To be fair I think McManus' statement is pretty reasonable. As long as Saints' owners are prepared to continue to subsidise these losses, which in a professional sports context are pretty small, then it's a pretty minor issue. Certainly not a short-term crisis. Rugby League needs to do the right medium-to-long-term things to create value, rather than panic. Only by doing that will we 'save' the sport, there is no salami-slicing cost pathway to that, that will only make things worse. 

However for a couple of other clubs, perhaps Salford and Castleford, who lack committed "investors" with £1m per season to burn over the long term, then it may be more critical in the next 12-24 months. 

Our media rights are hugely under-valued against comparator sports, there is a lot of central distribution upside if we can reposition the product and create some competition for those rights. Similarly, the sports central sponsorship revenue is probably as close to zero as you can get. So again, significant upside with good, resilient, relentless leadership.   

 

[M j M]

1 hour ago, OMEGA said:

I don’t know all the ins and outs of it like some but I think Wakefield just posted their accounts and they were mightily impressive (for Wakefield). Something along the lines of a decent sized profit, + an asset of £14million and £500k in the bank.

Is there a Trinity fan on here that can be a bit more accurate than me?

Wakefield under Michael Carter were a model of financial prudency. They got a lot of stick but Wakey was the best example we had of a typical SL club living within its means. Unfortunately a lot of people didn't like the way that looked.

I suspect that financial model has completely gone out of the window under the new owner.

 

[whatmichaelsays]

12 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Where is the rental income coming from?

Office space in the East Stand that is being rented out. These were previously university classrooms for Leeds Met/Carnegie/Beckett.

[whatmichaelsays]

2 minutes ago, M j M said:

Wakefield under Michael Carter were a model of financial prudency. They got a lot of stick but Wakey was the best example we had of a typical SL club living within its means. Unfortunately a lot of people didn't like the way that looked.

I suspect that financial model has completely gone out of the window under the new owner.

 

I think the critique of Carter, and I think it's a fair one, is that he was excessively prudent - he seemed to approach things with a "zero growth" mindset. 

There's a place for people with those skills and mindset within sport, but there's equally a place for people who want to grow and expand their business with some calculated risks. Carter, I would argue, was too far on one end of the spectrum. Eventually, a strategy of "try to stay in SL as cheaply as possible" was always going to catch up with him. 

[DoubleD]

51 minutes ago, M j M said:

A quick analysis of the Big Four from their 2023 financial statements. None of them look good.

 

It's been six years since I last did this analysis. In that time Saints are the only club to record an increase in turnover - they've grown it by more than £2m which is pretty impressive whilst their rivals have fallen back.

At EBITDA level though it's pretty cataclysmic: in 2017 these four clubs made a combined positive EBITDA of £886k (ranging from £1.2m at Leeds down to negative (£696k) at Saints). In 2023 the combined EBITDA for the four clubs is negative (£5.6m) with all of them having fallen back by hundreds of thousands of pounds and all of them much lower than the worst of the four in 2017. Warrington and Leeds are both making over £2m less EBITDA than they were six years ago.

Below EBITDA things get murky with differing levels of depreciation and tax write backs.

Leeds for some reason have included a detailed analysis of their turnover which is instructive (I would have resisted including this if these were my accounts, there's no need to go into this level of detail). It shows as mentioned above the YOY reductions in central funding.

Hasn't some of the activities from 6 years ago been shifted to the Foundation arms, so not a like for like comparison?

[DEANO]

Do you get more points off img for having big losses 

[Hopie]

What stood out for me from the article was this quote:
"However, real progress can only be made if central distributions in time revert to higher levels."

I think what we need to do as a game is move away from this model, the game seems to be moving towards ring fencing all the money to support an increasingly small number of "top" clubs. This feels backwards to me, any success at the top should be used to ensure that the foundations of the game are strong. Super League clubs should basically be looking at what they get from central funding as a maximum, and preparing for it to fall. A club that gets a top grading should basically be sustainable by itself and be looking to grow its non central distribution income to do so (or paid for by rich owners who are happy to lose their money). Even if that means writing off the short term, there is the chance that the pro game in this country will be gone if we don't plan for the future.

Any central distributions should proportionally be weighted more and more to development at grass roots level and maintaining different levels of the game. Development officers and regional academies are important, semi pro clubs are needed to bridge the gap between amateur and super league and without funding these will continue to die off and the whole structure will collapse.

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

51 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

. Carter, I would argue, was too far on one end of the spectrum. Eventually, a strategy of "try to stay in SL as cheaply as possible" was always going to catch up with him. 

His strategy was merely don't spend more than we have coming in. Unfortunately as the Sky money diminished there were no alternative significant income streams to replace it.  Things just got tighter and tighter. That's what caught up.

In the wrong place at the wrong time 10 years after being in the right place at the right time.

[Pete Grady]

OK, will the 3 Jokers who laughed at the idea of a part-time professional game, please give us their plan for a sustainable British game?

We await............

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Pete Grady said:

OK, will the 3 Jokers who laughed at the idea of a part-time professional game, please give us their plan for a sustainable British game?

We await............

Are you suggesting that these results are not sustainable and Saints will be going bust?

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Pete Grady said:

Going semi pro is the answer.

All the best British talent will go the NRL, our National team will then prosper and the British game will be sustainable.

Do you think Sky will pay the same for a part time game?

[ATLANTISMAN]

Dragons are actually in profit 

[Gooleboy]

Surely big financial loses will count against clubs in the IMG rankings.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Surely big financial loses will count against clubs in the IMG rankings.

It's not a positive, but equally it's not the be all and end all as it's the overall finances that are looked at. Profitability is one aspect of the finances grading.

[M j M]

5 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Surely big financial loses will count against clubs in the IMG rankings.

Profitability only represents half a point in the spreadsheet. Bigger losses aren't particularly penalised. Profitability is rewarded.

[Archie Gordon]

29 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Dragons are actually in profit 

We'll soon fix that!

[The Future is League]

52 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Dragons are actually in profit 

I wonder if them clubs that want them out of Super League are in profit?

[wasginger]

32 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Surely big financial loses will count against clubs in the IMG rankings.

Not SL clubs it won't. Prepare for further cuts in funding at lower club level.

[M j M]

2 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Hasn't some of the activities from 6 years ago been shifted to the Foundation arms, so not a like for like comparison?

I don't think so, the Leeds Foundation has been at a similar scale for quite a long time now, bringing in and spending around £1 to £1.4m each year.

[M j M]

43 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

I wonder if them clubs that want them out of Super League are in profit?

It's not clear who these clubs are but they probably include the ones with the smallest losses, yes.

[The Future is League]

34 minutes ago, M j M said:

It's not clear who these clubs are but they probably include the ones with the smallest losses, yes.

Or perhaps insecure one's.

[Ullman]

17 hours ago, jacksy said:

Dare I ask about Hull Fc finances.

Adam Pearson from earlier this season:

"Despite recently posting £1 million losses for 2023, we remain on target to breakeven in 2024, despite disappointing performances on the pitch, which is an incredible effort and reward for some extensive work behind the scenes."

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/adam-pearson-explains-hull-fc-9259688