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Bradford AGAIN (Merged threads)

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55 minutes ago, newbe said:

Know for a fact when Bulls played Hemel a couple of seasons ago, they agreed to sell tks for the game (Hemel at home) Bulls would get a commission on sell of tkts. Guess what they still haven't paid Hemel. Good job Hemel run a club on a sound financial footing, and can absorb the loss.

If that is the case then the RFL would have refunded Hemel from Bradford's central distribution

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1 hour ago, LeeF said:

If that is the case then the RFL would have refunded Hemel from Bradford's central distribution

Unlike for shared gates the Op Rules don't specify any punishment for not paying the home club for selling advance league match tickets, although they also do for a home club not supplying tickets for the away club to sell in advance ...

Edited by Les Tonks Sidestep

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3 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

I dont agree with Martyn on too much, but that article was pretty pathetic. Why couldn't the guy give his own view without attacking Sadler's? Martyn has made his own views known, this guy should just present his own instead of focusing on Martyns.

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17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I dont agree with Martyn on too much, but that article was pretty pathetic. Why couldn't the guy give his own view without attacking Sadler's? Martyn has made his own views known, this guy should just present his own instead of focusing on Martyns.

Sometimes it's just too tempting a target 😂

But on this I'll agree until someone can explain what exactly the big conspiracy is in someone taking over a loss-making Rugby League club, apparently securing its debts and ensuring its future.

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I dont agree with Martyn on too much, but that article was pretty pathetic. Why couldn't the guy give his own view without attacking Sadler's? Martyn has made his own views known, this guy should just present his own instead of focusing on Martyns.

Andrew is a very well respected fan and has written an excellent article that is in response to Martyn’s stated positions and glaring omissions. That’s why it’s written from that particular standpoint.  It’s about as far from ‘pathetic’ as it’s possible to be.
 

This mad scenario has now gone on for almost a decade. It’s about time the RL press got a grip of it and the people behind it.  They haven’t.  In fact, sometimes it feels like that they don’t want to touch it, for whatever reason.  I suspect if we had people like Andrew working as full time RL journalists we’d maybe get to the truth behind any corruption, malpractice, self-interest, incompetence, complicity, nepotism, and criminality that may have occurred.

Andrew’s piece is filled with some very important questions for all of us (this is bigger than just Bradford).  Maybe it’s best to focus on those and the same people that run through the story and are still on the scene. Remember, the big cash prize is still to play for.

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7 hours ago, Konkrete said:

Andrew is a very well respected fan and has written an excellent article that is in response to Martyn’s stated positions and glaring omissions. That’s why it’s written from that particular standpoint.  It’s about as far from ‘pathetic’ as it’s possible to be.
 

This mad scenario has now gone on for almost a decade. It’s about time the RL press got a grip of it and the people behind it.  They haven’t.  In fact, sometimes it feels like that they don’t want to touch it, for whatever reason.  I suspect if we had people like Andrew working as full time RL journalists we’d maybe get to the truth behind any corruption, malpractice, self-interest, incompetence, complicity, nepotism, and criminality that may have occurred.

Andrew’s piece is filled with some very important questions for all of us (this is bigger than just Bradford).  Maybe it’s best to focus on those and the same people that run through the story and are still on the scene. Remember, the big cash prize is still to play for.

People can present their own views, but his article lost all credibility in my eyes as it was just a step by step questioning of Sadler's view. There was nothing of substance in it. It reads like a forum post on here.

I'm also not sure why it is accepted that the other bids were decent and these people (including Koukash) are given credibility because they attacked the RFL. I dont find it surprising that people disappointed that they weren't chosen are angry. But there is no evidence that their takeovers would have led to a different conclusion.

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14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

People can present their own views, but his article lost all credibility in my eyes as it was just a step by step questioning of Sadler's view. There was nothing of substance in it. It reads like a forum post on here.

I'm also not sure why it is accepted that the other bids were decent and these people (including Koukash) are given credibility because they attacked the RFL. I dont find it surprising that people disappointed that they weren't chosen are angry. But there is no evidence that their takeovers would have led to a different conclusion.

Are you seriously suggesting that at the time, if this was Warrington say, you’d be happy if the RFL had knocked back multi-millionaire Simon Moran and given the club to a man with two curry houses down Longford?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Konkrete said:

Are you seriously suggesting that at the time, if this was Warrington say, you’d be happy if the RFL had knocked back multi-millionaire Simon Moran and given the club to a man with two curry houses down Longford?

 

 

I assume that is a like-for-like comparison mate? Because it doesnt read like one. 

Wasnt one of the guys involved with one of the bids part of the Wasps exec when they moved to Coventry?

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40 minutes ago, Dave T said:

People can present their own views, but his article lost all credibility in my eyes as it was just a step by step questioning of Sadler's view. There was nothing of substance in it. It reads like a forum post on here.

Martyn actually invited the blow for blow criticism in an exchange on twitter last week, after he was criticised for last Monday's (IMO) softball acceptance of Wood. 

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One thing that definitely does need commending is that the article appeared at all.

Fair play to Martyn Sadler for opening the columns of his paper to what was inevitably going to be stinging personal criticism. I think deserves respect, whatever one feels about the actual content (which personally I think raises some wide ranging issues that need to be addressed)

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8 hours ago, Konkrete said:

Andrew is a very well respected fan and has written an excellent article that is in response to Martyn’s stated positions and glaring omissions. That’s why it’s written from that particular standpoint.  It’s about as far from ‘pathetic’ as it’s possible to be.
 

This mad scenario has now gone on for almost a decade. It’s about time the RL press got a grip of it and the people behind it.  They haven’t.  In fact, sometimes it feels like that they don’t want to touch it, for whatever reason.  I suspect if we had people like Andrew working as full time RL journalists we’d maybe get to the truth behind any corruption, malpractice, self-interest, incompetence, complicity, nepotism, and criminality that may have occurred.

Andrew’s piece is filled with some very important questions for all of us (this is bigger than just Bradford).  Maybe it’s best to focus on those and the same people that run through the story and are still on the scene. Remember, the big cash prize is still to play for.

I 100% agree with you. I am grateful you have ventilated the issue.  Its a damning article exposing the state of the game (too many issues to list) and journalism (ditto).

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20 minutes ago, Amber Avenger said:

Martyn actually invited the blow for blow criticism in an exchange on twitter last week, after he was criticised for last Monday's (IMO) softball acceptance of Wood. 

Maybe, but I am not sure focusing on Martyn's view is a normal thing to happen. There are plenty of people angry about what has happened with the Bulls, why try to pull apart the one prominent view that isn't angry?

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be pee-'d off with the situation at the Bulls, but the anger towards Martyn is odd. 

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21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Maybe, but I am not sure focusing on Martyn's view is a normal thing to happen. There are plenty of people angry about what has happened with the Bulls, why try to pull apart the one prominent view that isn't angry?

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be pee-'d off with the situation at the Bulls, but the anger towards Martyn is odd. 

Yeah I get it, but I also find it odd that the flagship column in one of the games leading publications has basically said "this is the least worst option, Bulls fans be grateful as nobody else wants you", (an article that could have been written at any of the last four change of owners) when only days before Martyn has suggested an independent inquiry was the best way forward. Perhaps it was too much to expect the two views to link up, and I realise I have a dog in the fight, but it felt a far to simplistic response, to an issue way more complicated than that column gave it credit for especially given Martyn's own - self admitted- history with Wood. 

I abandoned a letter of similar length to the LE last week regarding the exact same column, partly as I though Martyn wouldn't print it - so credit to him for printing this article. Personally I agree with every word of it, and I think the issues brought up acutely demonstrate why plenty of fans - myself included - are about done with the club and the sport. If you can get past the blow for blow nature of it, the issues themselves ring true as a bell for a long suffering fan in this and plenty of people in the sport, in the club etc should pay heed if the sport is to ever win fans back in the city of Bradford ever again. 

Edited by Amber Avenger
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CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I assume that is a like-for-like comparison mate? Because it doesnt read like one. 

Wasnt one of the guys involved with one of the bids part of the Wasps exec when they moved to Coventry?

I don't see how it’s an unfair comparison.  We had wealthy backers ready to come in and they were knocked back in favour of OK, then the gang of three, then MG, then AC, now NW.


David Thorn is the man you mention. But why would the governing body want someone like that - a man with A lot of money and a fabulous track record in UK sport?  Maybe someone as successful as him taking the club would get in the way of other people’s ambitions. David’s interview about his dealings with the RFL make for very revealing reading. 


Forever in our shadow, forever on your mind.

 

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5 minutes ago, Konkrete said:

I don't see how it’s an unfair comparison.  We had wealthy backers ready to come in and they were knocked back in favour of OK, then the gang of three, then MG, then AC, now NW.


David Thorn is the man you mention. But why would the governing body want someone like that - a man with A lot of money and a fabulous track record in UK sport?  Maybe someone as successful as him taking the club would get in the way of other people’s ambitions. David’s interview about his dealings with the RFL make for very revealing reading. 

I'm a logical man. Could you explain any kind of logic that would see the RFL want to choose a weak bid over a great bid and go through this thing again? 

Didnt all the other bidders actually pull out?

I may be getting the two mixed up, but wasnt Thorne critical of both the RFU and RFL? It just came across as sour grapes personally as he didnt get what he wanted. He didnt offer any rationale other than general moans. But he did state he believed the RFL were genuine and honest, something which many are questioning.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I'm a logical man. Could you explain any kind of logic that would see the RFL want to choose a weak bid over a great bid and go through this thing again?

Dave, I’m sure you can work it out from the thousands of posts on this subject, the questions in Andrew’s article, and my post back to you late last night. Here’s a quick prompt...
 

Who are/were the decision makers?

Where are these people now?

Why might they have made the decisions they did?

Where has all the money gone?

What potential financial benefits remain to any owners?

What has happened to the assets of the club in the last few weeks?

 


Forever in our shadow, forever on your mind.

 

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In such a small sport as RL with little or no coverage in the mainstream media and only a small specialist press you are never going to get hard questions asked, the clubs and administration know that without their cooperation the specialist press has no content, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Martyn might disagree vehemently with this but without a much wider press and media coverage (as with football or Sydney RL) the clubs and administration can do as they like without being held to account, any nefarious activities are unlikely to be the lead story on the 6'o clock news and the combined readership of all the RL publication's will be under a third of the 50,000 who attend matches on a weekly basis, I stand to be corrected on those figures. So they might be pi**ing off some their catchement but as  seen on here most are heartily sick of the Bulls ongoing situation and just wish it to end either way. So the plan seems to be sit tight, ride out the minor storm and carry on pensions etc intact.

It reeks I know, but it isn't Watergate, there's no best selling books or film rights in it, you still get to read you favourite RL publication's, nobody's died and there's far worse thing's happening, and being covered up, to worry about.

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2 hours ago, Konkrete said:

Dave, I’m sure you can work it out from the thousands of posts on this subject, the questions in Andrew’s article, and my post back to you late last night. Here’s a quick prompt...
 

Who are/were the decision makers?

Where are these people now?

Why might they have made the decisions they did?

Where has all the money gone?

What potential financial benefits remain to any owners?

What has happened to the assets of the club in the last few weeks?

 

Yeah, I get that this is a Nigek Wood corruption point, but it's all a bit far fetched and ultimately the RFL is not a one-man band. 

I still dont see an end game of Wood making a fortune out of any of this. And I dont believe that Wood is corrupt.

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A loss of £850,000 for the 12 months to Jan '19.

I'm sorry but I just dont see how a Championship club can do this without either gross negligence or worse? How come the RFL didn't know or didn't do something about it earlier? How on earth is Rimmer still in a job?

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5 hours ago, Clogiron said:

In such a small sport as RL with little or no coverage in the mainstream media and only a small specialist press you are never going to get hard questions asked, the clubs and administration know that without their cooperation the specialist press has no content, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Martyn might disagree vehemently with this but without a much wider press and media coverage (as with football or Sydney RL) the clubs and administration can do as they like without being held to account, any nefarious activities are unlikely to be the lead story on the 6'o clock news and the combined readership of all the RL publication's will be under a third of the 50,000 who attend matches on a weekly basis, I stand to be corrected on those figures. So they might be pi**ing off some their catchement but as  seen on here most are heartily sick of the Bulls ongoing situation and just wish it to end either way. So the plan seems to be sit tight, ride out the minor storm and carry on pensions etc intact.

It reeks I know, but it isn't Watergate, there's no best selling books or film rights in it, you still get to read you favourite RL publication's, nobody's died and there's far worse thing's happening, and being covered up, to worry about.

  Just because it is regarded as a small sport - or only a small number of individuals lose out,along with a relatively small number of supporters - it does not negate the apparent wrongdoing which is continuing with alarming regularity.

 

52 minutes ago, cookey said:

A loss of £850,000 for the 12 months to Jan '19.

I'm sorry but I just dont see how a Championship club can do this without either gross negligence or worse? How come the RFL didn't know or didn't do something about it earlier? How on earth is Rimmer still in a job?

    For all the RFL happy-clappers out there perhaps they can inform me of the number of clubs that endured the Widnes Vikings,Bradford Bulls et al experience while the RFL were housed in a small venue in Chapeltown Road.Leeds and former armed services man David Oxley was CEO?   How many individuals associated with rugby league clubs were sentenced to imprisonment or were faced with severe financial sanctions/bankruptcy.....or the clubs were ?

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8 hours ago, Konkrete said:

I don't see how it’s an unfair comparison.  We had wealthy backers ready to come in and they were knocked back in favour of OK, then the gang of three, then MG, then AC, now NW.


David Thorn is the man you mention. But why would the governing body want someone like that - a man with A lot of money and a fabulous track record in UK sport?  Maybe someone as successful as him taking the club would get in the way of other people’s ambitions. David’s interview about his dealings with the RFL make for very revealing reading. 

Where can i find the interview?

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6 hours ago, Konkrete said:

Dave, I’m sure you can work it out from the thousands of posts on this subject, the questions in Andrew’s article, and my post back to you late last night. Here’s a quick prompt...
 

Who are/were the decision makers?

Where are these people now?

Why might they have made the decisions they did?

Where has all the money gone?

What potential financial benefits remain to any owners?

What has happened to the assets of the club in the last few weeks?

 

Do you have the answers? Can you enlighten us?

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7 hours ago, Konkrete said:

Dave, I’m sure you can work it out from the thousands of posts on this subject, the questions in Andrew’s article, and my post back to you late last night. Here’s a quick prompt...
 

Who are/were the decision makers?

Where are these people now?

Why might they have made the decisions they did?

Where has all the money gone?

What potential financial benefits remain to any owners?

What has happened to the assets of the club in the last few weeks?

 

I sort of understand the "oooh they put their mates in charge so maybe they could get it later" conspiracy.

This is what I don't get:

Where has all the money gone? What money? The club is a money pit, there is no money.

What has happened to the assets? What assets? Players apart the club appears to have had not very much.

 

I understand the control argument but there is an implication that someone somewhere has or is going to get very rich out of this - that flies in the face of everything we know about the finances of Bradford Bulls and of Rugby League clubs in general. Except for a tiny number of exceptions they just don't generate cash profits.

 

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3 hours ago, cookey said:

A loss of £850,000 for the 12 months to Jan '19.

I'm sorry but I just dont see how a Championship club can do this without either gross negligence or worse? How come the RFL didn't know or didn't do something about it earlier? How on earth is Rimmer still in a job?

First of all, it's not the RFL's job to run the clubs. The RFL isn't a babysitter who has to take responsibility when a club makes a loss - given that probably 3/4 of the clubs are lossmaking this is an unrealistic view of the world. If you want the governing body to directly intervene in the running of clubs in this way then they will need about 30 extra staff. The clubs and their management have to take responsibility for what happens.

Secondly, and most importantly, losses are only a problem if they lead to debts that the club/company can't service. Bradford were ultimately put into special measures which presumably reflects concerns about their going concern. The loss in itself doesn't tell us much  - it definitely won't be the biggest of clubs outside Super League and plenty of other clubs in SL rack up bigger ones - London lost £1.6m in their most recently filed accounts, Wigan lost £1.2m, Saints £600k.

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13 hours ago, Dave T said:

I'm also not sure why it is accepted that the other bids were decent and these people (including Koukash) are given credibility because they attacked the RFL. I dont find it surprising that people disappointed that they weren't chosen are angry. But there is no evidence that their takeovers would have led to a different conclusion.

I can't believe, with the awful job he actually did when in charge of Salford, and his numerous proclamations since, of which none have come to pass, why anyone still pays attention to Koukash at all.

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