Would it be a good idea to merge the English and French league systems?

[The Hallucinating Goose]

I'm just putting this question out there as a point of discussion, I don't necessarily believe this would be a good idea but just thought it would be an interesting debate given how both Carcassonne and Avignon have expressed interest in joining the English league structure. 

So, would it be a good idea to merge the French league with the English one? Would it be an easy thing to do? How many French clubs would have the finances to play in it? Would the 3rd tier have to be regionalised with the league one and elite one champions having a promotion playoff or something like that? What do we think?

[ATLANTISMAN]

Sounds wonderful the cost of bringing over 30 players staff per game flights hotels coach etc approx 15K minimum per match.

Impossible best way forward Anglo/French cup for 8 teams max.

 

P

[Toby Chopra]

No. Full time French teams in Superleague where the funding exists, but otherwise RL in France is part time.

The links should be international, including at age group level, and a sharing of coaching resources and training.

[Expatknight]

The theory is good, to combine the leagues as well would benefit both in terms of improving the pool of players and providing competitive fixtures, but impractical due to the logistics involved. Let’s face it, these days you can’t rely on getting a train from Leeds to Manchester, so to throw flights / ferries etc into the equation and the cost to clubs already running on a shoestring budget would make it prohibitive. Nice thought though.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Expatknight
Typo

[Griff]

15 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Sounds wonderful the cost of bringing over 30 players staff per game flights hotels coach etc approx 15K minimum per match.

Impossible best way forward Anglo/French cup for 8 teams max.

 

P

£15k - coincidentally League 1 funding for the season.

Just saying.

Before Derwent Parker does.

[Griff]

18 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Sounds wonderful the cost of bringing over 30 players staff per game flights hotels coach etc approx 15K minimum per match.

Impossible best way forward Anglo/French cup for 8 teams max.

 

P

When's this going to be shoehorned into the season ?

[Black Country Wire]

Bring the French teams back into the Challenge Cup instead then.

[Sports Prophet]

56 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I'm just putting this question out there as a point of discussion, I don't necessarily believe this would be a good idea but just thought it would be an interesting debate given how both Carcassonne and Avignon have expressed interest in joining the English league structure. 

So, would it be a good idea to merge the French league with the English one? Would it be an easy thing to do? How many French clubs would have the finances to play in it? Would the 3rd tier have to be regionalised with the league one and elite one champions having a promotion playoff or something like that? What do we think?

It’s very difficult. I don’t think either the RFL or FFRXIII have demonstrated themselves to be commercially successful organisations. It has held the sport back for a very long time.

In a perfect world the professional game would be governed by a commercially minded company, focusing on the growth of the professional game while distributing profits to the respective RLEF member NGBs to run their development programmes.

Distributed at a base amount for nations like Czech and Serbia which run domestic activity and proportionately increase that distribution based on the number of registered grassroots participants and the number of clubs represented in the professional structure.

So a merger to some degree yes, but not governed by either.

 

[Griff]

10 minutes ago, Black Country Wire said:

Bring the French teams back into the Challenge Cup instead then.

Nothing to stop them entering as far as I know.

But even Toulouse don't bother.

[sam4731]

I said it on another thread but incorporate top 4 French clubs into the 1895 Cup. Double header in Britain and one in France for the QF.

[Pulga]

Expand SL to 14, have an English Championship and a French Championship. Two up, two down. One from each Championship.

[Tommygilf]

In short, for the professional teams yes, for the semi pro/amateur teams, no.

 

[RayCee]

The idea of amalgamation isn’t likely. More French clubs joining the game in the UK sounds better.

Except the game is based in the north of England and SE France, maximising distance. In addition they are both played in less financially prosperous areas of their respective countries. Finally RL is working class so doesn’t attract very wealthy investors. Otherwise it has potential.

[Eddie]

7 minutes ago, RayCee said:

The idea of amalgamation isn’t likely. More French clubs joining the game in the UK sounds better.

Except the game is based in the north of England and SE France, maximising distance. In addition they are both played in less financially prosperous areas of their respective countries. Finally RL is working class so doesn’t attract very wealthy investors. Otherwise it has potential.

The working class argument is a bit dated I think, the NRL have shown what you can do with a working class sport and while easier said than done, that should be the aspiration. 

[JonM]

Distance and travel costs are already the big problem for France. They're down to ~70 adult men teams playing competitive fixtures and travel times are already huge for those outside of Aude & P.O. 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Depends on what the structure would look like. The big issue appears to be travel, so the structure would need to minimise the need. French clubs traveling every other week is expensive. English clubs aren't happy traveling once, let alone more than once.

Would the reason be for promotion? Or for competition? If the latter, then perhaps a small competition between the top teams during the season (1895 Cup for example). If the latter, end of season playoffs. And is that promotion to the Championship or SL?

Regionalisation needs to happen (especially in UK), but at what level she how you'd achieve that is difficult. If it was at League 1, where would the extra clubs come from? Would you only fund the top clubs based on league positions? There's not enough to spread. Would you allow for the divisions to fluctuate in size depending on who gets promoted/relegated each year?

A lot of questions, but definitely a solution somewhere.

[binosh]

We can barely afford to run an English competition.

[Damien]

No it wouldn't and I don't really see the point at part time level. It's all far too costly for little/no benefit.

I am certainly open/want full time French clubs in SL or a French conference if numbers allowed.

[DI Keith Fowler]

Is there a quick win in just unilaterally declaring that Elite 1 and the Championship are two conferences of the same league with an 1895 cup competition shared between them? Functionally what difference would it make? You're probably not giving them any funding and they're unlikely to make up the points in the grading to get into SL anyway, but you've given them an avenue that might attract funding in the future and grow the game in France as a result. 

If things just plod on as they are nothings lost anyway, apart from a bit of money spent on branding and a few flights for a cup competition that will at least now have a unique selling point other than bluntly being the Challenge Cup but for rubbish teams (my own being included here). 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

Is there a quick win in just unilaterally declaring that Elite 1 and the Championship are two conferences of the same league with an 1895 cup competition shared between them? Functionally what difference would it make? You're probably not giving them any funding and they're unlikely to make up the points in the grading to get into SL anyway, but you've given them an avenue that might attract funding in the future and grow the game in France as a result. 

If things just plod on as they are nothings lost anyway, apart from a bit of money spent on branding and a few flights for a cup competition that will at least now have a unique selling point other than bluntly being the Challenge Cup but for rubbish teams (my own being included here). 

This links in slightly with my previous point. Is the point promotion? If promotion, to which league? SL or Championship? I don't think the latter could afford more foreign teams so would have to be the former.

Then promotion to SL would be done through IMG grading. You'd need to decide how many points winning the French competition would be worth alongside the rest of the criteria. This would then bring into question whether a European Cup (or "cross-division") competition would be worth creating to include in deciding a club's playing points for this grading, thus creating an actual need for the games to be played.

It would be a good way to give French clubs a meaningful avenue to SL without the need for them to go through the English systems directly. It would ultimately mean they'd need IMG approval to be promoted though, which would likely come down to French TV deals being attracted (which don't appear to be coming as yet). It would be difficult to deny a French team for too long however if they're regularly beating English clubs in a cup competition though.

If we outright pull the gates up on further French clubs entering the top level of club rugby on this continent though, we've affectively killed off any further potential growth in France, which in turn prevents the desired Anglo-French international games being competitive anytime soon. So it's important to iron out a strategy rather than just hope.

[Griff]

4 hours ago, Pulga said:

Expand SL to 14, have an English Championship and a French Championship. Two up, two down. One from each Championship.

Is that what Australia and New Zealand do ?

[StandOffHalf]

4 hours ago, sam4731 said:

I said it on another thread but incorporate top 4 French clubs into the 1895 Cup. Double header in Britain and one in France for the QF.

That would make that comp much more fun and interesting.

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

That would make that comp much more fun and interesting.

But would it work commercially?

4 x £15000 in travel costs before you even start thinking about anything else, such as wages, ground rents, officials, stewarding.

I just can't see such a venture making a profit.

[StandOffHalf]

8 minutes ago, Griff said:

But would it work commercially?

4 x £15000 in travel costs before you even start thinking about anything else, such as wages, ground rents, officials, stewarding.

I just can't see such a venture making a profit.

I agree. It does have a certain attractiveness, but would struggle to make sense in a small-scale curtain-raiser cup competition.

[sam4731]

16 minutes ago, Griff said:

But would it work commercially?

4 x £15000 in travel costs before you even start thinking about anything else, such as wages, ground rents, officials, stewarding.

I just can't see such a venture making a profit.

Well maybe we could invite a certain number of teams over here for it (naybe not 4) with the prerequisite that they have to fund it themselves. If they're serious about joining the English system, they could test the waters with this.